[Grumpy]

Allisa, a green roof is any roof that can be considered enviromentally friendly. This could includ a reflective white TPO roof. Is this what you mean, or did you mean a "garden" roof?

If you meant a garden roof, the garden is not actually a roof, but is over burden built atop the water proofing membrane. I personally don't consider the garden on a garden roof to be a roof, I consider the water proofing membrane beneath the roof to be the roof, therefore a garden roof could never be my favorite

 

[Grumpy]

He's just spamming his website.

 

[Grumpy]

I haven't seen that exact style of button before. Sorry. It is basically what we were discussing previously, however.

 

[Grumpy]

I saw one once and don't know who marketed the system but the name Genflex was on all the boots, thus I assume it was a Genflex system.

 

[Grumpy]

No you'd take a big sheet like on a ballasted system and before you installed the membrane you'd install a bunch of special screws into the insulation in a grid pattern, then after you installed the membrane you'd put a cap over the special screws that would pinch the membrane between the top and the bottom.

 

[Grumpy]

Similair to the old EPDM system that had the button caps. I forget the system name, all the old roofs that had it are almost all replaced now, but it was the same idea as the rhino.

 

[Grumpy]

OMG Rhino Bond http://www.olyfast.com/product.aspx?catID=25&prodID=625

Not my style. Heating the mebrane from the top side to adhere the fastener on the bottom side... I want to see some long term real world results before I adopt a technology like that.

 

[Grumpy]

I haven't installed SA TPO yet, but from what I understand about the product; I wouldn't install a SA tpo unless it was on new construction. From what I hear it goes so fast that the tear off crew couldn't tear off enough in a day to really experience any labor savings on the install. Last I checked the SA was nearly triple the price of the regular TPO, however that doesn't take into account the cost for the bonding adhesives.

My best guess is that the labor to install the SA tpo would be nearly the same as installing mechanically attached tpo. Again I haven't worked with SA yet so this is all speculation.

 

[Grumpy]

I guess I'm old school, but there's no better of a roof than 20 ounce copper installed with flat lock soldered seams.

I agree, there probably isn't anyting better. But let's see it on a 300 square shopping center or 1,000 square warehouse

 

[Grumpy]

I'm definetly considering IB especially because of their deck grade product. The crane thing is a killer though. Maybe I'll have to buy Ed's 30 year old crane truck LOL. Yeah right.

 

[Grumpy]

Flintlastic is no good in the cold weather and not very good if you have a lot of flashing details. Its only advantage is it can be installed by shinglers for small stuff. Its basicly glorified roll roofing that is only intended to last 10 years max, although PolyGlass who invented the modified SA's has a whopping 15 year warranty.
Better to go with a nice one piece single ply.

RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

A Certainteed 3-ply flintlastic SA system is warranted for either 15 or 20 years. I forget off the top of my head because it was for sure 15 years on the 3-ply, but I heard rumor they upped it to 20 years in 2010.

I do agree it's better for small stuff. I also agree that single ply is my preferred membrane on typical larger roofs. I also agree it's not good in cold weather requiring at least 40 degrees farenheit or more. This means it can only be install 6-8 months out of the year around here.

It sucks on residential most single ply manufacturers don't want to get involved. I'd have set up an IB account long ago, but due to logistics we're just not a good match for their company. In other words, my other suppliers have cranes on their trucks, IB doesn't over here so for each job I'd have to rent a crane to get the materials on the roof.

 

[Grumpy]

Modified adhered directly to plywood? Not my favorite. Isn't that a 10 year roof? How many plys?

 

[Grumpy]

How many years can you get out of the best available PVC?

20 years without a doubt, when properly installed. What'll happen is the insulation and any wood members beneath the roof will rot out before the membrane. PVC and EPDM will truly last a lifetime.

 

[Grumpy]

I have always been interested in IB Roofing but they apparently have no presence in our area. Even when I stop by their booth at trade shows and get contact names...never get a call back lol.

They might be the ONLY heat welded system that I have not installed....their loss!

I've had the exact same problem and they do have distrobution in my area. I contacted them first since I have heard such good things about them, but never got a response so went to Genflex who then ceased PVC when firestone bought them, so now onto Versico. for the record I haven't done any PVC yet but I see that as the natural progression from TPO once we can get more practice and increase our production, we're too slow.

 

[Grumpy]

I wanted to go to the polyurea school. Infact I really wanted to go and planned on it. However with the winter coming a month early, and the other training courses, It's just not going to happen.

I was also supposed to go to Penn. for the Versico training and certification in Feb. however I can't afford that either. Although I plan to go to Michigan in March for a Versico training.

With this winter coming too early, and having a large job left undone, and having a GC I have been doing work for for years owing me a substantial ammount of money (probably won't be workign for him anymore) I am scraping by to pay the bills. The good news is with the winter being so harsh I have a good jump start on the new year and will hit the ground running in spring.

 

[Grumpy]

The dates should all be on the airvent site. However we are going the 13th of february.

LOL I'll try to remind ya of the CRCA next year, old man

 

[Grumpy]

Ed, shoot me an email or call me at my office number. I will be happy nto get you some samples. We can go over the oparticulars also.

Maybe you, Grumpy and I can all get together and have some Dunkin Donuts coffeetalk. Remember the skit from SNL?

This tends to be a profitable arrangement for all of us.

I prefer Javaman from Mad TV. LOL When he was popular I was working in a machine shop and took my saftey glasses and painted big yellow blood shot eyes on them.


Anyways we should have met at the CRCA show last week. Are either of you going to the AirVent seminar?

 

[Grumpy]

Thickness is controlled in three ways, and we utilize all three.

Firstly, yes, the sprayer needs to have a grasp on how much the machine sprays out per minute, per pass at the sprayers normal motive rate, what the job spec calls for, what needs to be built thicker, etc. This is done much like a BUR mopper would know if his hot is going down at the proper flow rates. You have to be at the proper application temperature, and the mopper needs to know what he's doing.

Secondly, we know how much material has been ordered, is on the job, how large an area we cover with said amount of material, mark out this area, and app.ly the product. If we have left overs, then we go back and hit thinner areas and seams, flasahings, penetrations again until this area's material is accounted for.

Lastly, we use an elcometer mil thickness guage. This is an expensive tool. It measures how thick your coating is electronically.

Measuring a coatings, minimum thickness is the l.east of our worries in applying this awesome system.

Overspray.... Dont let it get on anything you dont want it on. Its that simple.

No seam tapes.... not needed. Instant set self-reinforcing. We can spray right up until it rains baby!

Unlike any of the elastomeric acrylics, the thicker you apply polyurea, the STRONGER it gets. So to build up at the flashings requires no reinforcement of any kind but additional spray.

Grumpy, have I ever gotten any samples in to your hands? If you were to sell this stuff, we travel.

If youre not an owner that can be on the job, I wouldnt recommend this system.

Aaron you gave me a sample and a ball park price. Simply put, I can't afford you

Plus seiously I can't sell one product that I have only one installer for. I become too dependant upon that installer and if for some reason we ever break partnership I am left stuck holding the bag. You also bring up another point, I don't want any system where I'd have to be locked on the job. In theory I want multiple crews out working every day, that'd be impossible for me to be in 4 places at once, plus doing my sales and business management too. Impossible.

 

[Grumpy]

Beacause it is a 100% seamless roofing membrane system with more elasticity than all of the aforementioned systems, except maybe EPDM.

Because I install the entire roof myself. Because it is both flexible and tough. Easily repaired if some type of mechanical damage does occur. Because it withstands ponding water indefinitely. Because it has excellent resistance to petro chemicals and animal fats.

Becasue it holds up as well or better than the other previously mentioned systems.

It is not a foam, but a two part instant set membrane system.

The only thing we cannot go over is tar and gravel. For this you need to install a layer of foam first.

I'm not calling it bad. But for me I have lost alot of faith in so called field installed membranes. In addition nobody has ever given me a difinitive answer to how to control the thickness of any sprayed in place systems other than "the intstaller has to have an eye for it." So you are eyeballing your work? Seems like some spots will be thicker than others.

I installed an elastomeric to manufacturer spec once. We sized an area and poured the 5 gallon bucket to the area, then spread it to the area blah blah blah. When all was said and done I thought we applied it liberally, extra thick for a good roof. The manufacturer said it was too thin during their warranty inspection. They used an elastomeric mill tester they claim. How exactly does that work other than to puncture the roof membrane to check the thickness?

Then on this same system of pouring aprox 3 gallon per square over cement board to make a so called "seamless monolithic roof membrane", the butyl tape on the seams in the cement board ended up peeling back and puncturing or tearing the elastomeric membrane. We had all sorts of leaks. The manufacturer actually had the balls to ask me to pay them to fix a roof they warranted! It was a manufacturer product failure anyways since the seam tape failed, not an installation problem, but the fact remains that it was not the roof I was promised it would be... so we stopped selling it.

Pretty much I think everyone in my company is at the concensus that if it's not a factory fabricated membrane it can't be trusted. We will still do coatings, but not guaranteeing them the same way we used to.

Oh and add to the mix all the spray foam roofs I've fixed, but those were pretty much due to installation error. But you can see why I have a bad taste in my mouth for these kinds of systems.

Oh and finally, what about over spray? Just like controlling the thickness the answers I get are as follows.... "it happens." For me that's not an answer, that's an excuse.

 

[Grumpy]

Because he sells and installs them and is comfortable with the results, plus the high profit margins, I would speculate.

Ed

To say that doesn't mean it is better. He just means he likes it more.