All systems are only as good as the installation and the weather conditions dealt with during the install.

If I had my druthers, I would prefer a built up roof, but there are not enough general roofers with talent to know how to do that adequately.

I find the white thermoplastics enjoyable to work with, especially for a detail minded person like myself, who can concentrate and allow the hours to just wither away.

Ed

 

All systems are only as good as the installation and the weather conditions dealt with during the install.
Ed

:thumbup::yes:

 

Been doing modified for years. It's ok. Getting more into TPO and liking it lots.

 

TPO, I don't even like to look at the hot kettle anymore. I just look the other way as I walk on by...

 

single ply roofs. particularly EPDM and PVC. Although I do have a nostalgic fondness for coal tar pitch.


RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

 

single ply roofs. particularly EPDM and PVC. Although I do have a nostalgic fondness for coal tar pitch.


RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

coal tar pitch huh ????? you can have all mine

 

PVC,EPDM,some coatings and standing seam as well.

 

I love the look of Lead dressed over mop rolls other than that i recently used EPDM and would not go back to torch on at all if i can help it.
Cheers
Dave

 

Torching is dead ! At least it is in this part of the country and may spread to the rest of it. I have some torch equipment right next to the kettle that we dont use. may start a roofing museum for that junk LOL

 

Nothing beats a good PVC.

The heat-welded seam is king.

TPO is OK but I still need to see more of a track record.

I have done many TPO projects and have even done a few projects more than once (within a few years) as Warranty Claims due to material failures.

My kettles have trees growing out of them and my torches only see time with the maintenance crews on older roofs we service...that is until I can replace them with PVC :thumbup:

 

Nothing beats a good PVC.

How many years can you get out of the best available PVC?

 

Which brand)s) do you prefer to install?

Sarnafil

Fiber-Tite

IBRoofing

Trocal

Duro-Last

Bond Cote

Some are hybrids, but still fall into the same family.

Ed

 

VFI Aromatic Aluminumized Polyurea, hands down better than all of the aforementioned systems.

 

...and why is that?

 

Because he sells and installs them and is comfortable with the results, plus the high profit margins, I would speculate.

Ed

 

Because he sells and installs them and is comfortable with the results, plus the high profit margins, I would speculate.

Ed

To say that doesn't mean it is better. He just means he likes it more.

 

Sarnafil and Fibertite are the top 2 that I go to bat with.

IB does not seem to have any presence in our area tho what I have seen at the trade shows I did like.

Trocal became HPG who then was bought out by JM if i recall correctly.

I do not currently install JM but the old HPG system was great.

Tried DuroLast on a few projects but didnt buy into the pre-fab roof thing.

 

VFI Aromatic Aluminumized Polyurea, hands down better than all of the aforementioned systems.

Spray Foam?

 

Beacause it is a 100% seamless roofing membrane system with more elasticity than all of the aforementioned systems, except maybe EPDM.

Because I install the entire roof myself. Because it is both flexible and tough. Easily repaired if some type of mechanical damage does occur. Because it withstands ponding water indefinitely. Because it has excellent resistance to petro chemicals and animal fats.

Becasue it holds up as well or better than the other previously mentioned systems.

It is not a foam, but a two part instant set membrane system.

The only thing we cannot go over is tar and gravel. For this you need to install a layer of foam first.

 

Beacause it is a 100% seamless roofing membrane system with more elasticity than all of the aforementioned systems, except maybe EPDM.

Because I install the entire roof myself. Because it is both flexible and tough. Easily repaired if some type of mechanical damage does occur. Because it withstands ponding water indefinitely. Because it has excellent resistance to petro chemicals and animal fats.

Becasue it holds up as well or better than the other previously mentioned systems.

It is not a foam, but a two part instant set membrane system.

The only thing we cannot go over is tar and gravel. For this you need to install a layer of foam first.

I'm not calling it bad. But for me I have lost alot of faith in so called field installed membranes. In addition nobody has ever given me a difinitive answer to how to control the thickness of any sprayed in place systems other than "the intstaller has to have an eye for it." So you are eyeballing your work? Seems like some spots will be thicker than others.

I installed an elastomeric to manufacturer spec once. We sized an area and poured the 5 gallon bucket to the area, then spread it to the area blah blah blah. When all was said and done I thought we applied it liberally, extra thick for a good roof. The manufacturer said it was too thin during their warranty inspection. They used an elastomeric mill tester they claim. How exactly does that work other than to puncture the roof membrane to check the thickness?

Then on this same system of pouring aprox 3 gallon per square over cement board to make a so called "seamless monolithic roof membrane", the butyl tape on the seams in the cement board ended up peeling back and puncturing or tearing the elastomeric membrane. We had all sorts of leaks. The manufacturer actually had the balls to ask me to pay them to fix a roof they warranted! It was a manufacturer product failure anyways since the seam tape failed, not an installation problem, but the fact remains that it was not the roof I was promised it would be... so we stopped selling it.

Pretty much I think everyone in my company is at the concensus that if it's not a factory fabricated membrane it can't be trusted. We will still do coatings, but not guaranteeing them the same way we used to.

Oh and add to the mix all the spray foam roofs I've fixed, but those were pretty much due to installation error. But you can see why I have a bad taste in my mouth for these kinds of systems.

Oh and finally, what about over spray? Just like controlling the thickness the answers I get are as follows.... "it happens." For me that's not an answer, that's an excuse.

 

LUUUUV ib but hate the cost!!
sarnafil
GAF EVERGUARD
bondcoat-2jobs
flexmembraine-3 jobs
custom seal basical a higher in duro-last using a 60 gen flex product.
fibertite
gen flex
and versiweld
did 5 jm tpos like it ok.
and yes even duro-last!!
epdm,gen-flex,versico,manville,ect i install a lot of products or have in the past some i like some i dont .
Been roofing along time have installed alot of bur-coal tar 18 yrs worth then went to the condom roofing as the ole boys call it.Was with the union for along time started roofing as a helper in 79 so you know its all only as good as the installer. And there knowledge and of course product line has to be of good quality and you will come to know that over time we all seen roofing material come and go.:laughing: Sorry ed did not mean to hijack your thread.

 

Tiny, it looks like we have nearly identical experiences, except I started in 1978 instead.

How did Custom Seal and the Mayle family end up with their patent lawsuit that Duro-Last brought against them?

Don't forget another D-L knock off, called At-Last out of LaPorte, Indiana too.

I remember meeting Steve and his Dad at a few of the Awards banquets and then Steve came to my office, but at the beginning, their shipping was a killer on price.

Ed

 

Thickness is controlled in three ways, and we utilize all three.

Firstly, yes, the sprayer needs to have a grasp on how much the machine sprays out per minute, per pass at the sprayers normal motive rate, what the job spec calls for, what needs to be built thicker, etc. This is done much like a BUR mopper would know if his hot is going down at the proper flow rates. You have to be at the proper application temperature, and the mopper needs to know what he's doing.

Secondly, we know how much material has been ordered, is on the job, how large an area we cover with said amount of material, mark out this area, and app.ly the product. If we have left overs, then we go back and hit thinner areas and seams, flasahings, penetrations again until this area's material is accounted for.

Lastly, we use an elcometer mil thickness guage. This is an expensive tool. It measures how thick your coating is electronically.

Measuring a coatings, minimum thickness is the l.east of our worries in applying this awesome system.

Overspray.... Dont let it get on anything you dont want it on. Its that simple.

No seam tapes.... not needed. Instant set self-reinforcing. We can spray right up until it rains baby!

Unlike any of the elastomeric acrylics, the thicker you apply polyurea, the STRONGER it gets. So to build up at the flashings requires no reinforcement of any kind but additional spray.

Grumpy, have I ever gotten any samples in to your hands? If you were to sell this stuff, we travel.

If youre not an owner that can be on the job, I wouldnt recommend this system.

 

Grumpy, have I ever gotten any samples in to your hands? If you were to sell this stuff, we travel.

Show me how and who to market to and I would be willing.

I don't have any samples. :whistling:

Ed

 

Extra thick with acrylics is not better. There is a point at which you are screwing the pooch by adding more material.

Three gallons of properly cured acrylic will pield about 27 dry mil per 100 sq ft. 3 gallons of polyurea will yield 48 dry mil per 100 sq ft. We will go up to 100 mil. Anything beyond this is overkill, in my professional opinion.

 

Aaron is this considered a coating or is it a roof system?

What type of Warranties are available and who backs them?

It sounds similar to the below grade or plaza deck -type systems that I have read about.

Is it Energy Star rated? How do you find it holds up to UV?

I typically stay away from field fabricated products for many of the reasons Grumpy pointed out. As roofers on the East Coast we seem to have enough working against us, having the membrane produced in a controlled environment rather than on the roof takes some of the chance for error out of the mix.

I am always up for learning about other products so if you have a link or something I'd like to check it out.

 

It holds up to UV quite well if you use the aliphatic polyureas or aluminumized, copper, grey or black aromatic polyureas. Aromatics are better for long term durability, but if you want a UV stable color, aliphatics are needed.

There are some various specs on gaining Energy Star ratings. You can waterproof seams, fasteners, flashings, drains, etc with an aromatic polyurea, and go with a white acrylic @ 2 gallons per square for the required 70% aged reflectivity of the Energy Star rating. OR you could go with an aliphatic color stable white to achieve same.

The acrylic will wear like any other acrylic, but can be recoated after about 10 years with a pressure wash, primer, and acrylic.

VersaFlex guarantees their aromatic (40 mil) with an acrylic latex paint topcoat colorant if applied directly behind the polyurea application BEFORE the reaction is complete. This is must be done within 4 hours. It has to be done this way with this spec because the paint will actually cross-link with the polyurea since it is applied before the molecular cross-linking is completed.

Due to cost considerations, we generally apply an aluminumized aromatic polyurea/urethane hybrid at 48 mil ADFT that weathers to a light grey and provides a little over 50% aged reflectivity. We offer ten years on this system, and polyurea mfg warranties are also available.

Field processing is the only way that this system is able to be applied since it is instant setting (10-30 seconds for hybrids and 4-6 seconds for pure polyureas). You KNOW if youre off-ratio, and you have to stop immediately, clean up the faulty material, solve the proportioning issue, and continue spraying. If you mess this system up, its your fault 99% of the time, and therefore need a wealth of technical info, the right equipment, and spraying experience to get it right.

This is what we do.

 

I don't have any samples either but its a long way to come lol

 

Ed, shoot me an email or call me at my office number. I will be happy nto get you some samples. We can go over the oparticulars also.

Maybe you, Grumpy and I can all get together and have some Dunkin Donuts coffeetalk. Remember the skit from SNL?

This tends to be a profitable arrangement for all of us.

 

Ed, shoot me an email or call me at my office number. I will be happy nto get you some samples. We can go over the oparticulars also.

Maybe you, Grumpy and I can all get together and have some Dunkin Donuts coffeetalk. Remember the skit from SNL?

This tends to be a profitable arrangement for all of us.

I prefer Javaman from Mad TV. LOL When he was popular I was working in a machine shop and took my saftey glasses and painted big yellow blood shot eyes on them.


Anyways we should have met at the CRCA show last week. Are either of you going to the AirVent seminar?

 

.....And that's where we come in.

You dont have to be on the job to know youre getting a quality job.

I am an owner operator so that you dont need to be one in order to get your customers a polyurea roofing system.

With what you already know and sell, you could easily sell this system at higher prices than mine. I am offering you a good value.

If our system does fail before your retirement, I can show you how to properly repair and maintain our system. You have intelligent roofing people. They can be trained for this aspect without expensive outlays.

It really is a win-win-win situation, Grumpy.

 

The dates should all be on the airvent site. However we are going the 13th of february.

LOL I'll try to remind ya of the CRCA next year, old man

 

I looked up and registered for the Air Vent Seminar for the 13nth last night.

I "May" change my mind and go to the one the day earlier, "If" I decide to go down to Florida, possibly sharing a ride with Aaron and/or Tiny.

I don't have the funds to do it on my own right now, but I surely would like to meet Tom and Chris in person, plus any of the other guys who are coming down, especially Mike Hicks and his crew he is bringing along.

Last minute call and a flip of the coin, as long as I don't lose the coin, maybe I can afford the dollar meals at Mc-D's or Wendys. LOL

Ed

 

I wanted to go to the polyurea school. Infact I really wanted to go and planned on it. However with the winter coming a month early, and the other training courses, It's just not going to happen.

I was also supposed to go to Penn. for the Versico training and certification in Feb. however I can't afford that either. Although I plan to go to Michigan in March for a Versico training.

With this winter coming too early, and having a large job left undone, and having a GC I have been doing work for for years owing me a substantial ammount of money (probably won't be workign for him anymore) I am scraping by to pay the bills. The good news is with the winter being so harsh I have a good jump start on the new year and will hit the ground running in spring.

 

80 mil IB pvc. in red because my face gets so damn burnt with white & tan.

 

Reply to original question

If your looking for a roof that will last, won’t leak and will put up with a lot of abuse its hard to beat a 4 (or 5) ply gravel surface Built Up Roof. Asphalt is good, coal tar is even better. (RooferJim – are you really nostalgic for that stuff? Man – just thinking about it makes my eyes burn ☺.)

SBS modified is ok – but defiantly more prone to problems – wrinkles, cap sheet granule loss, blisters.

I like single plys a lot, but only when the roof is not subject to foot traffic and other abuse. EPDMs been around since the 60’s and since the manufacturers switched from glue to tape at the seams they have performed exceptionally well. I also like the fact that any tool you need to install EPDM can be found at the neighborhood hardware store
I also like PVC – hard to beat a good heat welded seam. Unfortunately I’ve inspected a number of jobs where the welds are not good. Still if you need a reflective roof PVC is the way to go.

Not a big fan of TPO, it’s a relative newcomer to the US market and the manufacturer’s are still playing with the formula, trying to balance the need to meet UL and FM requirements for fire resistance with the need for a roof that will hold up to UV light. Last year at the NRCA technical committee reported problems with TPO membrane surface cracking along the backside of seams along with other problems. I agree with SinglePlyGuy – need to see more of a good track record before I’d recommend TPO.