We are in need of replacing a flat school roof on a Gymnasium. The roof would have to be stripped, soft panels replaced, etc. Since there is no value to the "look" of the roof since it won't be seen unless your in a plane...why should we leap for EPDM at nearly twice the price of sheet seamed rubber roofing. Both are offering similar warrantees for labor and materials? (Total footage is about 6000 feet) Should we consider cutting into the roof to add two exhaust fans? Or are they a disaster waiting to happen? I haven't found a compelling argument for the jump in installed price?
School Gymnasium Roof
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You don't sound like a roofing contractor, so please, identify your scope in the specifications.
Also, please further explain what a sheet seamed rubber roof is, from your perception.
I believe you are comparing a true rubber roof, called EPDM, to a Modified Bitumen Roof, which many contractors mis-identify by name also.
It is NOT a rubber material roof by any means. It is a bituminous product with plasticisers added for flexibility and gets applied with a torch or hot air welding unit at the seams.
Do you happen to have copies of the scopes specified that you could post as an attachment?
Then we could answer your questions better.
Ed
Also, please further explain what a sheet seamed rubber roof is, from your perception.
I believe you are comparing a true rubber roof, called EPDM, to a Modified Bitumen Roof, which many contractors mis-identify by name also.
It is NOT a rubber material roof by any means. It is a bituminous product with plasticisers added for flexibility and gets applied with a torch or hot air welding unit at the seams.
Do you happen to have copies of the scopes specified that you could post as an attachment?
Then we could answer your questions better.
Ed
In regards to Ed's post I concur fully. Post copies of the two or three scopes of work you are comparing and we can make some recomendations. Also a photograph of the roof or building structure would help too.
Why would the fans be a disaster?
Why would the fans be a disaster?
Last piece of advice: if the price is double, I don't care what the materials are, there is some majorly huge difference that youa en't picking up on. I may suggest seeking the advice of a 3rd roofer. Someone either made a major mistake or is hack, or you are comparing an apple to an organe. I can tell you that cost per square foot most materials are basically within the same ball park.
Hire the Right Contractor -- Read that.
Frequently Asked Flat Roof Questions -- And read this too.
Hire the Right Contractor -- Read that.
Frequently Asked Flat Roof Questions -- And read this too.
Hi,
Sounds like they may be doing the same thing. Price is not a good way to say they are using different materials.
Edpm is a sheet seamed roof.
Sounds like they may be doing the same thing. Price is not a good way to say they are using different materials.
Edpm is a sheet seamed roof.
Reply to the spec
As written spec included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included), all permits and inspections included.
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and crew in place, inspect and replace any compromised roof inderlayment.
3. Install 1” R-8 value polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI .060 EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.
As written spec included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included), all permits and inspections included.
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and crew in place, inspect and replace any compromised roof inderlayment.
3. Install 1” R-8 value polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI .060 EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.
You don't sound like a roofing contractor, so please, identify your scope in the specifications.
Also, please further explain what a sheet seamed rubber roof is, from your perception.
I believe you are comparing a true rubber roof, called EPDM, to a Modified Bitumen Roof, which many contractors mis-identify by name also.
It is NOT a rubber material roof by any means. It is a bituminous product with plasticisers added for flexibility and gets applied with a torch or hot air welding unit at the seams.
Do you happen to have copies of the scopes specified that you could post as an attachment?
Then we could answer your questions better.
Ed
Thanks for your help!
As written…the quote included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included)
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and screw in place. Inspect and replace any compromised underlayment.
3. Install 1” polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI 60mil EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.
As written…the quote included
1. Remove the existing roof down to the board decking and legally dispose of all materials(hazardous included)
2. Install 5/4” pressure treated nailer boards at the perimeter and screw in place. Inspect and replace any compromised underlayment.
3. Install 1” polysocyanurate insulation and mechanically attached to the deck. Fully adhere RPI 60mil EPDM membrane to the new insulation and roll in place.
4. Install 3” double seam tape to laps and power roll in place.
5. Flash all roof penetrations to manufacturer specifications.
6. Provide , fabricate and install .032 aluminum edge metal and flash water tight owners color selection.
7. 40 Year RPI Membrane Warranty/15 year labor and additional material Warranty.
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754 Posts
Are those the specs from two different bidders on the job?
It sure seems as if they copy/pasted from the same spec manual.
Both are EPDM Rubber roof membranes and describing the same scope of work.
Was there a significant price difference, or where those identical also?
What were you previously referring to when you said, "Sheet Seamed Rubber Roofing"?
Ed
It sure seems as if they copy/pasted from the same spec manual.
Both are EPDM Rubber roof membranes and describing the same scope of work.
Was there a significant price difference, or where those identical also?
What were you previously referring to when you said, "Sheet Seamed Rubber Roofing"?
Ed
Thanks for coming back to us. Can you post some photos of the roof?
The first guys don't know how to spell. I think you posted the same spec twice. Looks like you corrected some typos the 2nd time and added a few words.
Me thinks something smells fishy and you aren't who you claim to be.
What are your insulation requirements in terms of R value? 1" poly iso has an R value of 6, not 8. What kind of roof and insulation is up there now? What kind of roof deck does it have.
he doesn't say he's goign to use edge sealant on the seams witht he seam tape which is a requirement by all the manufacturers I am familiar with.
Who is covering the labor guarantee? The roofer or manufacturer. I'd want that spelled out.
Is the EPDM reinforced or non reinforced?
The first guys don't know how to spell. I think you posted the same spec twice. Looks like you corrected some typos the 2nd time and added a few words.
Me thinks something smells fishy and you aren't who you claim to be.
What are your insulation requirements in terms of R value? 1" poly iso has an R value of 6, not 8. What kind of roof and insulation is up there now? What kind of roof deck does it have.
he doesn't say he's goign to use edge sealant on the seams witht he seam tape which is a requirement by all the manufacturers I am familiar with.
Who is covering the labor guarantee? The roofer or manufacturer. I'd want that spelled out.
Is the EPDM reinforced or non reinforced?
It was late an yes I cut an pasted....
That is the general scope....1" insulation, .060 EDPM, etc. none of the three quotes distinguish between regular or reinforced. but the rest of their bids stay the same as far as work to be completed.
That is the general scope....1" insulation, .060 EDPM, etc. none of the three quotes distinguish between regular or reinforced. but the rest of their bids stay the same as far as work to be completed.
Sheet rubber comment was from a phone conversation
with the contractor...his quote faxed over was(as all three were) EDPM...no mention of reinforced.
with the contractor...his quote faxed over was(as all three were) EDPM...no mention of reinforced.
Fishy???
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I have only represented myself as a board member at a small private school in need of a roof??? There is R-30 in the ceiling space between the ceiling and roof...the sheeting is 1/2" fiberboard. I will get pictures later today. the warranty is through RPI...40 years on the membrane and 15 on labor and materials.
I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. I have only represented myself as a board member at a small private school in need of a roof??? There is R-30 in the ceiling space between the ceiling and roof...the sheeting is 1/2" fiberboard. I will get pictures later today. the warranty is through RPI...40 years on the membrane and 15 on labor and materials.
Thanks for coming back to us. Can you post some photos of the roof?
The first guys don't know how to spell. I think you posted the same spec twice. Looks like you corrected some typos the 2nd time and added a few words.
Me thinks something smells fishy and you aren't who you claim to be.
What are your insulation requirements in terms of R value? 1" poly iso has an R value of 6, not 8. What kind of roof and insulation is up there now? What kind of roof deck does it have.
he doesn't say he's goign to use edge sealant on the seams witht he seam tape which is a requirement by all the manufacturers I am familiar with.
Who is covering the labor guarantee? The roofer or manufacturer. I'd want that spelled out.
Is the EPDM reinforced or non reinforced?
All three contractors have the same proposal word for word you are telling me? Same insulation, same membrane, same warranty? There are NO differences in the way things were worded?
There are always differences which may appear subtle to the untrained eye but may be major to the quality and price. It's NEVER the same. Ever. Somethign is always different. All 3 are bidding the same manufacturer of materials? That's odd right there.
There are always differences which may appear subtle to the untrained eye but may be major to the quality and price. It's NEVER the same. Ever. Somethign is always different. All 3 are bidding the same manufacturer of materials? That's odd right there.
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71 Posts
40 year warranty? wow
I am assuming the decking is wood sheathing...fiberboard is rttpically the name for atype of insulation around here.
For a wood deck I would make sure that you add a gyp layer of some kind for fire rating...
Fully adhering EPDM to a 1" board is a lil iffy too....make sure they fasten the hell outta that iso or it is going to curl....
If a roofer advertises he is going to give you 1" iso with an R of 8 beware.
I would think to give a 40 yr the membrane would have to be at least .080 with 3" tape in the seams with a 7" coverstrip OVER teh finished seam... the perimeter metal would also be a pre-fab....not .032.
You should really get a few more prices....
I am assuming the decking is wood sheathing...fiberboard is rttpically the name for atype of insulation around here.
For a wood deck I would make sure that you add a gyp layer of some kind for fire rating...
Fully adhering EPDM to a 1" board is a lil iffy too....make sure they fasten the hell outta that iso or it is going to curl....
If a roofer advertises he is going to give you 1" iso with an R of 8 beware.
I would think to give a 40 yr the membrane would have to be at least .080 with 3" tape in the seams with a 7" coverstrip OVER teh finished seam... the perimeter metal would also be a pre-fab....not .032.
You should really get a few more prices....
.032 is prefab. No?
Single ply, you know warranty's are a game. I think you are thinking NDL but I bet it's a 40 year membrane warranty, like a shingle warranty, which is primarily useless. "Our material will be free from defects for 40 years."
Single ply, you know warranty's are a game. I think you are thinking NDL but I bet it's a 40 year membrane warranty, like a shingle warranty, which is primarily useless. "Our material will be free from defects for 40 years."
No EPDM comes with year warranty. is not necessarily pre-fab. Easily shop fabbed and delivered to site. The scope is fine. People who call themselves roofers get agitated when people arent sure of what they speak when discussing roofing. Every roofer thinks he knows everything there is to know. I personally would never recommend epdm for any project. TPO is white and much more durable to foot traffic and weathering than epdm. tpo is molecularly welded using hot air. therefore the seams are about% stronger than epdm. tpo is reinforced with polyester scrim as well. EPDM is a horrible product. Knowing today what we know, why would anyone put a black roof on anyways. Having said that though, epdm comes in white. More expensive though. Also, single ply guy was right about the fire barrier. You may want the roofer to provide the UL assembly he plans on referencing. Typically cafeteria's would need to be Class A roof assemblies. Let me know if you need any help with this.
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754 Posts
And your qualifications are.....?No EPDM comes with year warranty. is not necessarily pre-fab. Easily shop fabbed and delivered to site. The scope is fine. People who call themselves roofers get agitated when people arent sure of what they speak when discussing roofing. Every roofer thinks he knows everything there is to know. I personally would never recommend epdm for any project. TPO is white and much more durable to foot traffic and weathering than epdm. tpo is molecularly welded using hot air. therefore the seams are about% stronger than epdm. tpo is reinforced with polyester scrim as well. EPDM is a horrible product. Knowing today what we know, why would anyone put a black roof on anyways. Having said that though, epdm comes in white. More expensive though. Also, single ply guy was right about the fire barrier. You may want the roofer to provide the UL assembly he plans on referencing. Typically cafeteria's would need to be Class A roof assemblies. Let me know if you need any help with this.
It's just too bad that some people think that they know everything there is to know. (Hmmmm?.....Where have I heard that before?)
Have you looked in a mirror lately, barging in here with a grand total of one post and expect to be declared the resident expert, whos opinion we dare not find objection with?
Now, show off some knowledge that you purport to have, instead of just being an arrogant "RooferPhobic" Megalomaniac as you sound from your Grand Self Inspired Introduction.
Ed
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754 Posts
By the way, from viewing your profile information, I have a question for you.....
LI class=profilefield_category
About rwolfe
What is your Roofing related field/trade:
Cheif Estimator
What is a "Cheif" Estimator?
Forget it. I looked it up and NOW I UNDERSTAND.....:whistling:
From the Urban Dictionary:
1. cheif
to smoke or inhale a drug more than likly marajuana
i be chiefin that good ish
2. cheif
a mug or fool, a weak person. used primarily in west and northwest london
shut up you cheif
3. cheif
Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level
retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
I am glad to have had the opportunity to understand you better. I leave "Special" People alone.
Well, that was a complete waste of my time, but it sure felt good.
How about tomorrow, we wipe the slate clean and start all over again?
Ed
LI class=profilefield_category
About rwolfe
What is your Roofing related field/trade:
Cheif Estimator
What is a "Cheif" Estimator?
Forget it. I looked it up and NOW I UNDERSTAND.....:whistling:
From the Urban Dictionary:
1. cheif
to smoke or inhale a drug more than likly marajuana
i be chiefin that good ish
2. cheif
a mug or fool, a weak person. used primarily in west and northwest london
shut up you cheif
3. cheif
Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level
retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
I am glad to have had the opportunity to understand you better. I leave "Special" People alone.
Well, that was a complete waste of my time, but it sure felt good.
How about tomorrow, we wipe the slate clean and start all over again?
Ed
Joined
·
71 Posts
You are right Grumpy..i was thinking NDL.
And Ed, easy big fella lol.
3. cheif
Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level
retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
That made me almost piss myself.
And Ed, easy big fella lol.
3. cheif
Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level
retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
That made me almost piss myself.
Joined
·
754 Posts
:laughing:And Ed, easy big fella lol.
3. cheif
Misspelling of the word Chief - mistake typically made by idiots who read at the 3rd grade level
retard on IM - "Hey cheif"
retard's friend - "Hey guy, did you mean chief? idiot"
That made me almost piss myself.
Those are not my words, but straight from the Urban Dictionary.
They know definitions MUCH better than I do.....:whistling:
Ed
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