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Insulation with roofing jobs

16K views 48 replies 7 participants last post by  user182 
#1 ·
How many of you guys are offering insulation for residential attics?

I’ve never offered it until now.

I’m planning on offering Owens Corning AttiCat blown in fiberglass. My supplier will deliver the insulation and the blower with the roof materials. Of course they’ll let me use the blower for free.

The more I think about I realize this is something I should be doing. Inadequate insulation is the major cause of ice dams.

According to Owens Corning Research homeowners expect the “Roofer” to take care of everything above the ceiling.

It will help increase the size of the average sale and I’ll make more money off the job.

Since we are working on the roof we can just pop off a piece of plywood and go in through the roof.
 
#2 ·
I installed rolls of R-38 a bunch of times and the highest R-Value available in a 2" x 6" cathedral/vaulted ceiling area on several occasions.

I made out pretty good doing that too.

But, they have to have the extra 2-3 thousand dollars to do it, when they already are going through the roof expense.

Ed
 
#4 ·
It was on the CT forum

Didn't we discuss this exact topic word for word several weeks ago? Or was that another forum?

Attic Cat here too. I'd like to see that research, sounds like a nice selling story convincing the roofers to sell more product.
I haven’t seen the research; this is what I was told by OC reps.

I think OC does a better job of marketing than some of the other company’s. I thing they understand how to help contractors sell. I believe their research is accurate.

Another thing they told me was that making the roofing project convenient for the homeowner was more important than warranty upgrades for example.

I only have 2 problems with OC:

  • I have reservations about the solid strip of adhesive that they use on their shingles as opposed to tar spots. It makes the shingles into a vapor barrier and could trap water that happens to get in around step flashing.
  • I don’t qualify for their highest certification “Platinum Contractor” which can offer warranties that cover workmanship like CertainTeed’s 5 star.
Anyway about the homeowner perceiving that everything above the ceiling is part of the roof assembly makes sense to me. A lot of people have come here from other countries and they don’t understand our contstruction techniques.

One time we dropped some shingles on a roof and some nails popped in the drywall ceiling. The homeowner said to me “You use long nails”. It took me a minute to figure out what he was talking about, he didn’t realize that they were nail pops, he thought the nails we were using to nail down the shingles were so long that they were coming through the ceiling.
 
#5 ·
I wish OC made a better product, because youa re right they have a well known name. OC shingles have alot of failures, from my discussions with others. I only install OC on request.

I don't know if everyone's perception is the same. If people percieve that everythign above the ceiling is the roofers, why would they hire HVAc contractors to install attic fans? It seems like common sense, and common sense is never common. However once we explain it to them you can definetly see the wheels churning in their heads.
 
#6 ·
Let's talk about pricing for a minute. Since this is not something alot of people are yet doing, it's hard to really know where we stand competitively. I'm sure there are guys doing this for cheaper than me, but I want to make sure I am also not leaving much on the table.

Here is what I figured out this morning and put together a price list so my estimators don't have to figure out how much labor and material and add it together.


Minimum job cost for any insulation job is $1,100.00. This includes labor, material and mobilization.

Owens Corning AttiCat insulation is about an R 2.6 per inch on average. It actually varies from R 2.4 at lower thicknesses – 2.8 per inch at thicker thicknesses.

The following quick graph will help you in bidding the job. Square footages are based on interior attic measurements and do not include the over hang.

R value
Thickness
$ / square foot
20
8”
0.99
30
11.5”
1.19
38
14.5”
1.41
40
15.5
1.50
48
18.25
1.74

 
#8 ·
Insulation pricing

Awww damn, the table didn't post properly :( It said:

r20: $0.99
r30: $1.19
r38: $1.41
r48: $1.74
My price for r-30, 11.5 inches came out to 1.09 per sqft. which is roughly about 8% lower than yours. This does not include anything other than blowing in the insulation.

I would charge extra for boxing out the access opening, recessed lights, bathroom fans and adding baffles.

My price would have produced a gross profit of 30% and I figure at your price I would produce about 35% gross profit.

I have never sold an insulation job and I don’t know what other contractors are charging, this is new to me. When I sell my first job it will be a learning experience for me as well as my installers.

After the job is done I would have to review everything to see if adjustments should be made to my price and what I am paying the installers.

I have some flexibility with labor cost because there are a lot of workers here with nothing to do.
 
#9 ·
Rather than pricing extra for the box out and so forth, I just throw it in. Rather I have figured each and every job will need a box out at the hatch at least. I'll throw some cardboard around canned lights for free. Baffles are extra, and they are not included as a standard bwecause some roofs don't have overhangs and it's a way for me to go in with a low price but then upsell ont ahighly recommended upgrade.

when the customer asks why it's not included since it is so highly recommended, it is a way for me to knock my compitition rather civily as well as elevate myself onto a pedastol at the same time talking about ventilation and how I am certified and how important it is. Talking about how I know most guys won't include it, and I know our pricing is in-line with our competitors, but we do alot of extra work, so they get more bang for their buck.

I have flexibility with labor costs as well, however this is sooo damned easy we will do any of these jobs in-house. If I had to sub it out I'd have to add about $320 to every job to cover the increased expense of hiring a sub.

It's not a "money maker" job at these prices. These would be add-on prices if doing the job with a roof. I'd toss a few bucks on for sure if that was all we were doing. I figure we'll make aprox $300 gross profit on the materials for an average job depending on how many square feet and how many inches thick. Plus our labor.

I'm paying about $27 a bag. I read on CT in the insulation forum that some GC's are claiming that some guys can do a whole job for the same price as it'd cost to buy the material at a big box. How or why anyone would insulate a house with labor AND material for $300 is beyond me. Well I know HOW, I just don't know why.
 
#12 ·
Pircing for extras

Rather than pricing extra for the box out and so forth, I just throw it in. Rather I have figured each and every job will need a box out at the hatch at least. I'll throw some cardboard around canned lights for free. Baffles are extra, and they are not included as a standard bwecause some roofs don't have overhangs and it's a way for me to go in with a low price but then upsell ont ahighly recommended upgrade.

when the customer asks why it's not included since it is so highly recommended, it is a way for me to knock my compitition rather civily as well as elevate myself onto a pedastol at the same time talking about ventilation and how I am certified and how important it is. Talking about how I know most guys won't include it, and I know our pricing is in-line with our competitors, but we do alot of extra work, so they get more bang for their buck.

I have flexibility with labor costs as well, however this is sooo damned easy we will do any of these jobs in-house. If I had to sub it out I'd have to add about $320 to every job to cover the increased expense of hiring a sub.

It's not a "money maker" job at these prices. These would be add-on prices if doing the job with a roof. I'd toss a few bucks on for sure if that was all we were doing. I figure we'll make aprox $300 gross profit on the materials for an average job depending on how many square feet and how many inches thick. Plus our labor.

I'm paying about $27 a bag. I read on CT in the insulation forum that some GC's are claiming that some guys can do a whole job for the same price as it'd cost to buy the material at a big box. How or why anyone would insulate a house with labor AND material for $300 is beyond me. Well I know HOW, I just don't know why.
After I add in the extras my price would be about the same or higher.
My material cost is about the same.

I set up my estimating system to calculate how many bags I need. I figured it would be easier if I just paid the installing subs by the bag. I figured $15 per bag for labor.

I’m using Contracker EZ estimating software. I use it mainly for roofing because I can enter all the dimensions of the roof and it will give me a complete list of materials.

I came up with a formula that will allow mw to enter the length & width of the attic and it will tell me how many bags I need.
 
#11 ·
We've only done a hand full, not very many. I've done alot of promoting of these services this winter, but haven't very good results.

I, as well as the customers, have been happy with the results. These jobs can be done in winter when you can't roof. They can be done in the rain when you can't roof. They are so fast, so easy that it's worth offering.
 
#13 ·
I use two estimating systems. One is a spreadsheet in excel which is always the better way of doing it, however some estimators are lazy, old school or computer illiterate and need price lists. So I always do both.

Personally I probably won't use the spreadsheet for insulation since it's so basic although I'll make it for those "just in case" times.
 
#16 ·
We propose to insulate the attic…
1. Protect the interior of the house around the work area using drop cloths and cardboard.
2. Prepare the attic by building supports around any canned/recesses light fixtures to ensure there is no contact with the insulation which may cause lights to over-heat.
3. Purchaser to remove any items stored in the attic before work begins. (You will lose this storage space. If you require a raised platform be built for storage please contact your estimator before the start of this project.)
4. We will install approximately 11.5” of Owens Corning fiberglass insulation using a blowing method directly over the existing insulation. The R value of the new insulation is rated at about R-30. (With the addition of your existing insulation, this should meet new energy efficient building codes of R-38.)
5. While installing new insulation we will ensure that the existing insulation, as well as new insulation, does not obstruct proper air flow in any way.
6. Inspect Kitchen and/or Bathroom fans, duct work, and other attic ventilation for flaws and advise.
7. We will clean the work area of all job related debris by sweeping and vacuuming.
Total Price:
Dollars ……………………...………………..$.00
Optional attic rafter baffles: (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
Install rafter baffles in each rafter pocket to ensure that air intake is not blocked by long-term settling or movement of the attic insulation, for an additional price of:
Dollars …………………………...…………………………..……..$.00
Optional additional insulation:
Install an additional 4“ of insulation to bring the attic up to an R-48 which highly exceeds local building codes and is the recommended R value for the Illinois area by the US Department of Energy for an additional price of:
Dollars …………………………...…………………………..……..$.00
 
#19 ·
Nice and simple. Very well done.

Ed

We propose to insulate the attic…
1. Protect the interior of the house around the work area using drop cloths and cardboard.
2. Prepare the attic by building supports around any canned/recesses light fixtures to ensure there is no contact with the insulation which may cause lights to over-heat.
3. Purchaser to remove any items stored in the attic before work begins. (You will lose this storage space. If you require a raised platform be built for storage please contact your estimator before the start of this project.)
4. We will install approximately 11.5” of Owens Corning fiberglass insulation using a blowing method directly over the existing insulation. The R value of the new insulation is rated at about R-30. (With the addition of your existing insulation, this should meet new energy efficient building codes of R-38.)
5. While installing new insulation we will ensure that the existing insulation, as well as new insulation, does not obstruct proper air flow in any way.
6. Inspect Kitchen and/or Bathroom fans, duct work, and other attic ventilation for flaws and advise.
7. We will clean the work area of all job related debris by sweeping and vacuuming.
Total Price:
Dollars ……………………...………………..$.00
Optional attic rafter baffles: (HIGHLY RECOMMENDED)
Install rafter baffles in each rafter pocket to ensure that air intake is not blocked by long-term settling or movement of the attic insulation, for an additional price of:
Dollars …………………………...…………………………..……..$.00
Optional additional insulation:
Install an additional 4“ of insulation to bring the attic up to an R-48 which highly exceeds local building codes and is the recommended R value for the Illinois area by the US Department of Energy for an additional price of:
Dollars …………………………...…………………………..……..$.00
 
#17 ·
Thanks Grumpy that will be helpful.

I think the recommended level is r-49 now; I am recommending r-49.

If they have bats that are 6.5” thick I am recommending 12” of AttiCat insulation. I am rounding up the thickness to 7”, 12”, 14” or 19” depending on what they need.

I’ve seen sheet metal used to hold back the insulation around lights. You could take some aluminum trim coil and make a cylinder out of it using sheet metal screws to fasten it together.

I wonder if bathroom fans require an insulation barrier also, so that they don’t overheat. I know most of them I’ve seen are buried in insulation, but if the builder did it wrong the first time we don’t want to make it worse.

Same thing for recessed lights, there could be some that are already buried.

I need to get some pictures together to help the sales process. I tried to sell an insulation job the other day after removing ice dams.

When I started talking to the owners about what they needed I could tell that they didn’t understand. I should have taken a camera into the attic so I could show them pictures on my computer.
 
#18 ·
I put together a presentation book using some job site photos as well as taking screen shots while viewing the OC installation video. Definetly a picture speaks 1000 words, with a 10 page flip book everything seems to make sense.

Last I checked which was November of 2008, it was still R 48 by the US Dept of Energy. It may have changed since then but codehere is still R 38 for new construction. Older homes are grandfathered in, but with the average roof haveing about an R 8 existing, it's not a hard sell to tell them they have 20% the insulation they'd be required to have the house were built to today's standards. That really gets the wheels turning in their cranium.

For a visual I am going to take a picture on the next job, side by side new vs old showing them how much more thick it'll be after we are done, or in other words showing them side by side just how little insulation they do have.
 
#21 ·
Side by side picture

I put together a presentation book using some job site photos as well as taking screen shots while viewing the OC installation video. Definetly a picture speaks 1000 words, with a 10 page flip book everything seems to make sense.

Last I checked which was November of 2008, it was still R 48 by the US Dept of Energy. It may have changed since then but codehere is still R 38 for new construction. Older homes are grandfathered in, but with the average roof haveing about an R 8 existing, it's not a hard sell to tell them they have 20% the insulation they'd be required to have the house were built to today's standards. That really gets the wheels turning in their cranium.

For a visual I am going to take a picture on the next job, side by side new vs old showing them how much more thick it'll be after we are done, or in other words showing them side by side just how little insulation they do have.
A side by side picture is what I need. Here is a picture of a plastic tube that my supplier gave me. It’s filled with insulation and has 1 inch increments s and r values on the label.

The job I quoted the other day already had blown in insulation but it had been pulled away from recessed lights and packed down from workers crawling through the attic. Also most of the insulation around the access hatch was gone. It must have fallen out when the workers installed the recessed lights because the hatch wasn’t boxed out. All of this was done before the current owner lived there.

When I told him the hatch needed to be boxed out he said he didn’t know what I meant. That’s why you have to have pictures of everything. The existing conditions and how you are going to do it. Also some of the baffles were filled with blown in insulation.

You’ve got to take pictures or the average homeowner won’t know what you are talking about.
 

Attachments

#20 ·
What about old metal coffee cans to put around the can lights in the attic?

Just an idea. I never did any of this before.

Ed
 
#49 ·
Insulation barrier for recessed lights

What about old metal coffee cans to put around the can lights in the attic?

Just an idea. I never did any of this before.

Ed
Here is an easy way to make an insulation barrier around recessed lights.

Just take about 3’ of trim coil and make a cylinder and secure it with self tapping screws.

I decided to put a barrier around all recessed lights even if they are rated for insulation. Even the ones that are rated for insulation can overheat and burn out the bulb or cause it to flicker.
 

Attachments

#23 ·
I toyed with the idea of using empoty paint cans or buckets and poking holes in the bottom for air flow, until I saw the installation video and the guy is basically putting card board boxes, upside down, with no bottoms (4 sides no top or bottom) around the canned lights. This is a much more effecient and economical way of doing it IMO...

Plus seriously would you hire a guy who was going to use used old coffee cans for materials? Not the kind of customer we are going after, plus I think you need more air space around the light than a coffee can will provide.


The proposal is simple, yet informative and to the point. It clearly states what we are going to do, and what we are not going to do as in the case of removing any stored items. Plus it informs them that if they are using their attic for storage, they will lose that space or else we are going to have to build a platform. Can anyone say Upsell? :)

Building the platform is pretty easy, take some 2x12" in a box laid across the existing joists, Fill with insulation, cover with OSB, Done. Then proceed to insulate the rest of the attic. This box would be built as close to the hatch as possible so they don't need to travel throughout the attic space.
 
#24 ·
Yeah I saw that sample, but it's not quite what I mean since tht's all new insulation. Put some new next to the old and you really :eek: the difference. Think of it like this, you are doing half the gutters on a house, beause the old gutters are maybe 5 years old and perhaps half fell off in a storm or what ever. The customer never really thought of the old gutters as being old, until the brand spaking new aluminum is visualized with the old. All of a sudden their house is mis-matched and they end up replacing the rest of the gutter anyways. I think we've all been there before.

That's kind of why I wanted to do a side by side of new vs old, showing 4 or 5" of insulation next to 16" of insulation. Big difference not only in the size, but in the dirtyness of the old rockwool that was sooo common around here awhile ago.
 
#26 ·
Warranty and limitations

Here is my warranty and limitations, your critiques are welcome. You would insert your company name where the word "Contractor" appears.

1 Year Warranty: Contractor warrants that the insulation will be installed according to manufacturers’ specifications.

Warranty Limitations
Damage caused by manufacturing defects is excluded. Warranties are null and void if payment is not received in full and timely. This guarantee is void if any alterations or repairs are made on this project by anyone other than a representative of Contractor. We will not be responsible for any cracks or nail pops that may result in the ceilings or walls while work is being done in the attic. Contractor is not responsible for damages caused by mold in attic and/or walls. Owner will allow access to driveways for delivery trucks or additional fees will apply. Contractor and its subcontractors, material suppliers, dumpster and trailer suppliers are not responsible for damage to driveways.
 
#27 ·
What does your warranty even mean? TO me that's some marketing so the customer says "Oh look a warranty!" I mean in this case I can guarantee the job won't leak for 1000 years. Hell perfect opportunity to offer a life time guarantee. But the question is what exactly am I guaranteeing?

I couldn't think of anything to warrant which is why I have no warranty. What exactly am I supposed to be warrantying?

All of your exclusions are already a part of my standard terms of service and labor guarantee, which I have posted in various places on many occasions. Except the driveway thing. Anyone who works for me is instructed to stay fof the drive way. If the suppler damages the driveway I expect them to fix it or lose a customer. I guess that's a topic for another discussion.
 
#28 ·
Proper installation



The warranty means that I am going to properly install the insulation.

For example, the insulation should be roughly the same depth throughout the attic. The insulation should not block off soffit vents or get blown into the baffles.

I think my main concern is being held liable for a condition in the attic now or in the future.

Some attics may have stains around roofing nails caused by condensation. Now does that means a mold removal project should happen. Most people would think it’s insignificant. But if they sell the home and some pinhead inspector makes an issue out of it problems could develop.

That’s just one example. No mater how good of a job you do with the ventilation you can’t control the humidity in a home. The homeowner could turn up the humidifier and cause condensation in the attic.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Reviseed Proposal Specs

The blank spaces for depth and r-value would not showe up when I copied & pasted.

The existing insulation has an approximate depth of inches, and an approximate R-Value of
1. Install Owens Corning Expanding Blown-In Fiberglass Insulation, approx. depth inches, approx. R-Value
2. The existing insulation and the new insulation combined will have approx. depth of inches, approx. R-Value
3. Ventilation: while installing new insulation we will ensure that the existing insulation, as well as new insulation, does not obstruct proper air flow.
4. We will install vent channels to allow an air flow between the insulation and roof deck;
5. We will install soffit vents to provide intake ventilation;
6. If needed we will install a barrier to hold insulation away from recessed lights.
7. If existing bathroom fans are not properly venting a duct pipe and roof vent shall be provided;
8. A barrier shall be constructed around the attic access opening to hold back insulation and the attic access opening shall be covered by an insulated panel.
9. Care will be taken not to damage the interior of the home and any job related debris will be cleaned up and removed.
10. Other:

TOTAL INVESTMENT $
 
#32 ·
They have a Mold Disclaimer or Exclusion listed on the Air Vent website, but you have to go to the Site Map to find it for the wording.

Ed
 
#34 ·
Ok I put this page on my website today. My adwords and Yahoo PPC campaigns will likley go live on Monday. I wanted to get some opionions before I start throwing away money.

First, other than the complete lack of photos, any suggestions on the wording? I also know there is one missing link on the bottom in regards to attic ventilation in the additional resources. I also plan to write up an article on cellulose vs fiberglass. What about the part where I talk about the big boxes?

So your thoughts? Chicago Attic Insulation
 
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