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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
How do you guys in Chicago do your drip edge?

I’ve heard you guys talk about gutter apron, is that custom made?

Here in Detroit it’s standard to put new drip edge on all edges.

I use large face drip edge.

If the house already has drip edge we rip it off and install new.

Prospects expect it to be installed because that’s what the contractors are telling them is included. If I didn’t include it in my estimate the homeowner would think that I am leaving something out that should be included.

 

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Gutter Apron drip edge is a different style of aluminum sheet metal with a pitch already bent into the roof deck portion and a slightly larger face that extends down into the gutter or onto the fascia boards.

Gable edge drip edge metal, which is commonly called O.D.E., for Overhanging Drip Edge, is what too many guys use for the Gutter Apron, which it was not designed for. The top portion is bent at a 90* with a 3/8" 180* tight hem extending out past the fascia board.

When you use the the ODE for the eave portions, the face automatically rises due to the flat 180* portion being forced to go up the pitched roof angle.

Now, in many occasions, the front face of the ODE being used for the Gutter Apron, does not extend into the gutter like it should.

On the Gable Edge ODE, I install the lowest piece first, but take a screw driver or rigid putty knife and open the 180* hem. Then I take my tin snips and insert the exposed portion of the second piece of ODE, but just the Face portion exposed on the fascia, behind the lower piece of ODE sheet metal.

By doing that, when you look up the side edge of the sloped roof, you do not see any seams.

Now, for the portion that goes on the decking, I install the second piece on Top of the lower portion of ODE. This is to allow the moisture to properly roll down, without getting Under the previous piece of ODE.

Most guys do not include the finishing touches of the installation of the sheet metal ODE n their roofing scope of the proposal and installation process.

I do, even though it adds a couple of hundred bucks to each job, but it is just one more way to differentiate my company's skills from the other Riff-Raff.

Now, Grumpy does NOT install the ODE typically, but I do not consider him to be included in the Riff-Raff comment. But, he has his own personal reasons for doing it otherwise.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Gutter Apron drip edge is a different style of aluminum sheet metal with a pitch already bent into the roof deck portion and a slightly larger face that extends down into the gutter or onto the fascia boards.

Gable edge drip edge metal, which is commonly called O.D.E., for Overhanging Drip Edge, is what too many guys use for the Gutter Apron, which it was not designed for. The top portion is bent at a 90* with a 3/8" 180* tight hem extending out past the fascia board.

When you use the the ODE for the eave portions, the face automatically rises due to the flat 180* portion being forced to go up the pitched roof angle.

Now, in many occasions, the front face of the ODE being used for the Gutter Apron, does not extend into the gutter like it should.

On the Gable Edge ODE, I install the lowest piece first, but take a screw driver or rigid putty knife and open the 180* hem. Then I take my tin snips and insert the exposed portion of the second piece of ODE, but just the Face portion exposed on the fascia, behind the lower piece of ODE sheet metal.

By doing that, when you look up the side edge of the sloped roof, you do not see any seams.

Now, for the portion that goes on the decking, I install the second piece on Top of the lower portion of ODE. This is to allow the moisture to properly roll down, without getting Under the previous piece of ODE.

Most guys do not include the finishing touches of the installation of the sheet metal ODE n their roofing scope of the proposal and installation process.

I do, even though it adds a couple of hundred bucks to each job, but it is just one more way to differentiate my company's skills from the other Riff-Raff.

Now, Grumpy does NOT install the ODE typically, but I do not consider him to be included in the Riff-Raff comment. But, he has his own personal reasons for doing it otherwise.

Ed
Do you make that gutter apron yourself or do you buy it.

Can you post a picture of it?
 

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My reasons for not drip edging the bagles, mmmm bagles, Erm I digress... My reason for not drip edging gables is simply the fact that in my experience I see very little problem with wind driven rain or wind uplift at the gables. It's hard enough being 20-50% higher than the low bidder already, adding another $500 for what ever reason is a hard thing to do, especially since I don't see the purpose.

I do install a starter/bleeder course up the gables/rakes which I don't think you MI guys are accustomed to doing. I had hired a guy from Michigan who found it odd we didn't drip edge the gables rakes but did install a starter course on the gables/rakes.

Gutter apron has a compeltely different profile than drip edge. If I were in the office I would send you a CAD drawing of each. A gutter apron is a simple L shaped metal, not F shaped, with aprox 3" under the shingles and aprox 2" on the face. Sometimes it is customer but only on very long gutter runs where a 2" face just isn't enough, while still giving the gutter good pitch. Gutter apron is something that can be bought anywhere even home depot and lowes. FYI drip edge can be bought int he same places. Another thing, at my gutter supplier I can get ANY color gutter apron, but only some color drip edge.

I will however install drip edge on a drip line/gutter line, when a gutter is not installed. There have been some garages with no gutters and some real high end homes in Riverwoods IL with 3' or 4' overhangs and no gutters. I then install the ODE to extend the shingles a little extra and protect the fascia. I will also install ODE when I am doing a plywood job, because the plywood edge needs to be protected from the elements. I have seen alot of jobs with the roof being 10-15 years old, plywood job in the past, and the entire gables are rotted out. It adds a few hundred to the job costs but is a necessity on those plywood jobs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My reasons for not drip edging the bagles, mmmm bagles, Erm I digress... My reason for not drip edging gables is simply the fact that in my experience I see very little problem with wind driven rain or wind uplift at the gables. It's hard enough being 20-50% higher than the low bidder already, adding another $500 for what ever reason is a hard thing to do, especially since I don't see the purpose.

I do install a starter/bleeder course up the gables/rakes which I don't think you MI guys are accustomed to doing. I had hired a guy from Michigan who found it odd we didn't drip edge the gables rakes but did install a starter course on the gables/rakes.

Gutter apron has a compeltely different profile than drip edge. If I were in the office I would send you a CAD drawing of each. A gutter apron is a simple L shaped metal, not F shaped, with aprox 3" under the shingles and aprox 2" on the face. Sometimes it is customer but only on very long gutter runs where a 2" face just isn't enough, while still giving the gutter good pitch. Gutter apron is something that can be bought anywhere even home depot and lowes. FYI drip edge can be bought int he same places. Another thing, at my gutter supplier I can get ANY color gutter apron, but only some color drip edge.

I will however install drip edge on a drip line/gutter line, when a gutter is not installed. There have been some garages with no gutters and some real high end homes in Riverwoods IL with 3' or 4' overhangs and no gutters. I then install the ODE to extend the shingles a little extra and protect the fascia. I will also install ODE when I am doing a plywood job, because the plywood edge needs to be protected from the elements. I have seen alot of jobs with the roof being 10-15 years old, plywood job in the past, and the entire gables are rotted out. It adds a few hundred to the job costs but is a necessity on those plywood jobs.
I’ll ask my supplier about gutter apron. I’ve never seen it in stock around here. It looks like flashing we would use on a mansard roof at the point where the pitch changes.

Drip has become the standard around here. This has developed over the years. Contractors convinced the owner that they should have it.

I used to install drip edge with a 1” face and then prospects acted like I was offering an inferior product because someone else offered one with a 1 ½” face.

They also convinced them that the drip edge should be replaced. It’s commonplace to replace it around here. If I sent a crew out to job and told them to leave the drip edge in place they would probably forget and rip it off anyway.

However I do think it is a waste of money and only drives the price up.
 

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I'd ice shield the gables and rake before I'd drip edge, and I don't ice shield gables nor rakes. In my experience I don't see them being a problem so have never had the need for this added protection. IMO better to focus on the areas that are known to be problems first, and the rest is gravy. It's not like I refuse to install drip edge, I just don't always promote it.

And yes you can probably use the gutter apron as a gambrel slope change transition but we prefer to bend our own with a larger face, a hem and a compression kick-in at the edge.
 

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everybody has their own opinion about thing but i kind of think sad when traditional techniques are abandoned,i think that starts the ball rolling on what else to skip
and believe me i have the utmost respect for everyone's opinion on here:thumbup: so please, this is just my humble opinion :notworthy:
 

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You say traditional techniques, but I will tell you I have torn off roofs as old as 100 years and almost never do I see a drip edge.

I've torn off all types from slate to shingles, to cedar, to metal... Metal may be the only roof with a gable/rake flashing that is seen on a consistant basis, and that's because it's needed for a termination. I've torn off very high end homes. I have torn off working class homes. I have torn off every architectural style. If I sit back and think, I think I can count the number of homes that had drip edge using both hands.
 

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thanks grumpy i appreciate the post

ive been working on a job its an estate in upstate n.y slate slate roof has leadcoated edging, wood roofs have copper,which i belive at the time were industry standards
 

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Every single Cedar Shingle job with multi-layers of asphalt pn top at least has a galvanized J-Channed Re-Roof Edge Metal on the eave cedar.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
I’m not saying I would stop using it, but if it’s already on why tear it off?

On almost all of the home around here the builders installed drip edge on the bottom edge but not on the rakes. They installed a starter shingle on the rakes.

It has become standard around here to rip off the drip edge on the eave edge and install new drip edge with an 1.5 inch face.

I brought this up for 2 reasons. If the drip edge is already there why should I add in the cost to replace it?

OR if installing gutter apron is better than drip edge maybe I should switch to gutter apron.

Many of the gutter installation I see around here have the gutter on a big angle for drainage. I think that would require custom made gutter apron or it would not extend into the gutter in some places.
 

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if the edge is an unpainted copper and is in good condition i would absolutly say keep it but if its painted steel or aluminum its probably a good time to replace it
 

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Every single Cedar Shingle job with multi-layers of asphalt pn top at least has a galvanized J-Channed Re-Roof Edge Metal on the eave cedar.

Ed
I disagree Ed. Those were the 100 year old roofs I was discussing above. We do alot of these type jobs, at least a couple each year, in Evanston, Oak Park and older parts of chicago.
 

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I’m not saying I would stop using it, but if it’s already on why tear it off?

On almost all of the home around here the builders installed drip edge on the bottom edge but not on the rakes. They installed a starter shingle on the rakes.

It has become standard around here to rip off the drip edge on the eave edge and install new drip edge with an 1.5 inch face.

I brought this up for 2 reasons. If the drip edge is already there why should I add in the cost to replace it?

OR if installing gutter apron is better than drip edge maybe I should switch to gutter apron.

Many of the gutter installation I see around here have the gutter on a big angle for drainage. I think that would require custom made gutter apron or it would not extend into the gutter in some places.
Minimum slope for gutter is 1/4" per 10'. Typically we will pitch it greater than that however, and yes on long runs the end piece may need to be a custom flashing. We also don't like runs longer than 35' without a downspout.
 

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I'll make some gutter apron if I have to, but a good steel wide face roof edge does work just as well. We use drip edge on everything and run starters on eaves and gables. The drip edge makes the edge stronger, but it also keeps the fascia on. lol

Never use Rollex aluminum roof edge. It is almost useless. It bends and bows very bad. I think I could make something much stronger with brake aluminum.

Do you guys still have alot of wood fascias or what?
 

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Minimum slope for gutter is 1/4" per 10'. Typically we will pitch it greater than that however, and yes on long runs the end piece may need to be a custom flashing. We also don't like runs longer than 35' without a downspout.
You can go 40 feet for each 2" x 3" Downspout according to SMACNA, so I would presume 80 feet for each 3" x 4" Oversized Downspout.

Ed
 

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Always err on the side of caution ed. I too read Smacna's book a few years back. 35' seems to work a little bit better and on the average home doesn't cause comsmetic worries. Even though an over sized downspout is twice the size, I wouldn't double the run. 80' is a long run for garbage and crap to build up in the gutter.
 
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