School Gymnasium Roof

rwolfe

I strongly agree with everything you said, except the fool proof part. The seam preparation and placement of term bar for mechanically attached systems are far from fool proof.

rw

BornaRoofer

Nice how you are flip flopping now that it seems some other roofers appear to like epdm as crazy as it sounds.

National not International.

Gaf may be the largest overall but were not discussing shingles. They definitely are not the largest commercial membrane manufacture.

Leed has its place to bringing awareness to building owners and builders on the green movement but there system is skewed and when it comes to costs and returns for the roof their system makes no sense that's all im saying.

Look I know many roofers that are 60+ years old and they would come to blows over the opinion that a 4 ply asphalt is the best roof on the planet. The same gos for Mod bit or singleplys. Everybody has an opinion and thats their right.
Slate roofs last for generations but asphalt shingles rule the roost.
Copper can last decades but there's a lot more steel out there.
Which is the ultimate singleply membrane? I dont know and I dont think anyone does. Theres so many variables like location, traffic, debris accumulation(grease,paint,leaves, ect) contractor quality and on and on.

And as you know my favorite is Adhered 60 mil Epdm and is the choice of most commercial building owners in the Midwest at least and tpo will soon be the new champ if not already.
And this opinion is based on the millions and millions of square feet of roofing I have done final inspections on the last 10 years from Michigan to Florida.
And im waiting to see your $3500 percentages.

rwolfe

I agreed with singleplyguys post because it made sense. I would have liked to argue the lifecycle cost statement, but TPO has not been around for 45 years like EPDM. So that wouldn't have been smart on my part. Maybe in about 10 more years I would like to have that statement thrown around again because I'm not sure it's correct. Especially considering the published energy savings being thrown into the mix of the lifecycle cost analysis. From a maintenance cost stand point, I'm thinking I would charge a little more on EPDM strictly because I have to inspect all of the seams, in addition to the typical maintenance items.

Having said that, I'm not flip flopping. That's not what I do. I was agreeing with a statement that I couldn't argue.

My previous posts where in response to yours.

"White roofing is a joke in "most parts" of the country more like a fad in my opinion. It may reduce the heat island effect but thats about it.
And how are you so sure tpo is the next coming? Do you know when the last chemical changes were made to the sheets by the manufactures and how long those have been on roofs? I dont think you do. Im not saying tpo is bad just that anyone that says its the best is silly.
I mean come on rwolfe you obviosly dont even realize when your being ripped a new a hole much less what a good roof is.
So in case you were'nt sure I dont agree with you."

That, in my opinion, was over aggressive as a response to what I was saying previously. Not only that, your subsequent remarks were embarrasingly similar in tone. Therefore I concluded that I needed to defend my position. I certainly never said TPO was the best single ply (although I'll go on record to say that Fibertite is). And to make a comment like "white roofing is a fad"...? That just didn't make a lot of sense.

My thoughts are:
Dollar for dollar, the installed cost of TPO is no higher that EPDM. Therefore, why install EPDM? That was my point.
Why not install it? Chemical characteristics not perfected. Sure that was a valid arguement 12 years ago. It's not now. I do know though, that manufacturer's are constently changing the formulations in attempt to bring production costs down. Actually, I would really like to hear a valid reason for not recommending TPO over EPDM. A factual based arguement though. That is a topic for a different post.


The fact is, if EPDM is installed correctly, it may have it's place. But with TPO's ever growing existence in the market, EPDM will begin to be shown the door. This isn't my opinion. How many EPDM producing machines are there in the U.S. 4? 6? How many new plants are there? Wait, I know the answer to that one. None. How many new TPO plants are there. I know Carlisle has a new one. Mansville has a new one. Firestone is producing their own now. GAF bought two (or three, can't remember) new machines. JP Stevens, who knows what their doing. Not sure I care. Their the ones who gave tpo a bad name anyways. Look, all I'm saying is that the writing is on the wall.

The architects who have been specifying EPDM over the years typcially did this because of the cost comparisons to other warranted roof systems. It's not typcially because they thought it was the best. In fact, when replacing an existing epdm roof, it's typical to here from the owner that they want anything but what they have. Or, it's been a nightmare since day one. Now that's not the membranes fault. But it is reality.

When the numbers are sent to me, they will be posted. I'm certainly dissapointed in GAF's marketing departement. The people I'm working with on this are surprised at their MD's slow responses.

Thanks for the professional banter

rw

SinglePlyGuy

Let me expand on my statement by saying that as compared to other single plies, or other roof systems, the seaming on EPDM requires the least skill. Fool proof may have been a bit too much.

This is not a jab at EPDM installers, just my opinion based on my experience.

I can have laborers doing EPDM seams in a few hours...and doing them properly mind you. Peel and stick accesories.....piece of cake. Flashing curbs.... pretty easy. Field wrapping pipes, etc? nah not in a few hours.

Heat welded systems, however, require a stronger skill set and a more detail-oriented installer.

Not sure about the "placement of term bar" comment tho....

SinglePlyGuy

Maybe in about 10 more years I would like to have that statement thrown around again because I'm not sure it's correct. Especially considering the published energy savings being thrown into the mix of the lifecycle cost analysis.

I am curious as to this part of your post....the energy savings portion and its correlation to life cycle cost.


Why not install it? Chemical characteristics not perfected. Sure that was a valid arguement 12 years ago. It's not now.

Unfortunately it still is a valid argument. I am not at liberty to get into specifics at this time, but I can assure you that more than 1 of the top producers of TPO is having major issues today with membrane prodcued not even 5 years ago. I have samples in my office that I personally cut from roofs in the tri-state area.


JP Stevens, who knows what their doing. Not sure I care. Their the ones who gave tpo a bad name anyways.

They were acquired by Dow and I agree that their first (and 2nd and 3rd...) generations of TPOs were really bad. But they were not alone....GAF also made some HORRIBLE product ...and some may argue that they still are.

rwolfe

funny, the seams where the part that I thought was not "fool proof". It's been my experience that guys needed to pay very close attention to the amount and coverage of the primer. I always liked to see a solid line of primer left on the bottom sheet to make sure the primer on the edge of the top sheet was adequate. Not only that, but laying the tape and rolling it in has always been difficult to master for my guys as well. Maybe non union labor is different than labor union. I don't know.


The placement of the batten bar in the seams is extremely important in terms of uplift. The bar is usually placed in the center of the 5" lap (on mechanically attached systems obviously) and the 5" tape is placed. This will allow the tape to extend equally on both sides of the bar, but more importantly, 2" behind the bar. This allows for greater uplifts at the fasteners. Similar to double welds on thermoplastics.

Again, maybe it's just me. But I've never had any luck throwing laborers on this detail.

With EPDM roofs, insulation laying and attachement in my opinion requires the least skill. I've always made sure I had my best mechanics working with my best laborers on placing and attaching bar along with finishing the seam assembly. The fastening, priming and placement of the tape is not only critical for asthetics and passing inspections, but for long term performance as well. I don't put laborers on this detail unless working with good mechanics.
With Thermoplastics on the otherhand, I've had success by setting the leister's speed and heat myself then putting a laborer on the leister for welding seams. Before the end of the day, I'd throw another laborer on a probe to check the work. Which is what should be done anyway. After a couple days of this, most laborers are able to set the robot and run the robot with very little input.
I guess my thoughts regarding seaming proceedures are exactly the opposite of yours. But that's fun.

In terms of life cycle cost and energy efficient roof systems. Not sure where the confusion lies. Life cycle cost is the amortized annual cost of a product, including capital costs, installation costs, operating costs, maintenance costs, and disposal costs of a particular assembly. So if comparing black roof vs white roof over the same amount of time, cost analysis must consider any savings or expenditures consistent with the specific roof system. I'm seeing where power companies are claiming that installing a reflective roof system can reduce load capacity of cooling system up to 20%. Large commercial retailers such as Home Depot, Best Buy, Walmart and too many more to name are realizing this statistic and are installing white roofs all over the United States.

Finally regarding formulations. I'm in no position to dispute your claim. But I was installing TPO when Carlisle and JP had their big issues in the 90's. Since then, I've not heard of any collossal issues. But then again, I haven't installed JP or Carlisle for a while. Heck, a couple years ago, JM was having granule loss issues. A couple years later they were batching banana rolls. So everyone has their production problems every now and again. I remember when factory EPDM seams were failing all over the country. It happens.

rw

rwolfe

Wow, I have the report and can't load it because of size restrictions.

How can I do this. It's 507 kb's and I can't get it any smaller.

I will tell you that TPO is taking over.

Ed the Roofer

Either host the photo on a photo sharing site, like PhotoBucket.com and many others and then provide the forum link to the photo.

or

Resize the photo on your computer.

Easiest way is to use MS Paint and you open that by Right Clicking on the photo and Click Edit.

Now you are in MS Paint with the full sized photo.

Go up to the top tool bar and find Stretch/Skew.

Decrease the percentage in the drop boxes and do a Save As.

Then, you have a smaller image.

Also, Save It as a JPEG instead of any of the other formats. It takes up less real estate.

Ed

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Grumpy

If it's a report, and not a photograph consider convering it into a pdf which will take up much less space than a photo document.

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rwolfe

Here's the stats. I promised I would not say where I got this and I asked my guy to take out anything that could point back to his company. Atleast I hope so. I think C/I means commercial industrial. This is an industry recognized statistic that someone paid good money for. It's kind of rediculous that Manufacturer's can't talk more openly about it.

rw

Attached Images

Microsoft PowerPoint - aC-I Roofing Market Data 2001-2008 Southeast (3).jpg (12.2 KB, 21 views)