PVC vs TPO?

rwolfe

I can appreciate your apparent loyalty to Conklin. Probably wouldn't talk so specifically about the type of quality the product posseses though. Conklin doesn't make their sheet. I believe dow does. Anyway, I agree with your assessment of the reflective system vs non reflective. But after reading the rest of the post, I'm ashamed to admit that I agree with anything you stated. I'm understanding why owners seek out out of state roofers to perform work in St. Louis.

"Many of these have a UL Class "A" fire resistance ratings meaning that it won't feed a fire unlike a petroleum product"

Actually all of them have class a assemblies. If they didn't they wouldn't be sold in the US.

"Price-wise it's hard to combat a $2500-$5000 hot tar roof; but having to shell that out every 3-5 years IF you get a good installation, the PVC or TPO roof would have more than likely already paid for itself and will last a good 20 years or more".

This is so far off base I don't know where to start. So I won't.

"Durabond TPO contains no such reinforcement and isn't nearly as heavy duty thus puncture resistant."

Look, I've never heard of Durabond but this much is true. Every TPO in the market place has polyester reinforcement scrim embedded within. Some PVC's have a tighter thread count than the average tpo. Fibertite has the tightest of any on the market. But your comment about TPO not having scrim is interesting to say the least. You may wanna check your facts. Or stop using unsupported flashing membrane in the field of the roof.

I appreciate you extending this thread. But your comments are way off base. We've had some lively discussion regarding the usefulness of TPO vs EPDM in some other threads. But to brag up a third rate product that is marketed by a networking company is completely uncalled for.

Sounds like you like roofing though. I'm happy about that.

tomdaleh

I don't have any more loyalty to one product over another, I field test competing products and use what I find works best. Flexion is made for Conklin by Dupont. I wasn't aware of St Louis owners seeking out of state roofers, unless your referring to those workers with green cards, and then again where isn't that happening?

I'm curious to hear your logic on how a hot tar roof is going to pay for itself in energy savings and last as long as a PVC membrane?

And lastly I would invite you to check out the Durabond TPO Pro product on the web and then do a side by side comparison with the "third rate" Flexion. Then if you want I would be glad to take you out to job sites with the two products where you can see for yourself so you're not refuting postings with just opinions.

And yes I like roofing, doesn't sound you do though.

Grumpy

Reflectivity might not be so important to that person in Alaska who is trying to capture heat. I've even read studies that say that even for Chicago reflectivity is overrated because we generally heat more than we air condition.

Having said that, I still opt for reflectivity, because the roof is generally a system that includes insulation. Therefore we get the insulating values we need in the winter time and the reflective values we need in the summer.


IN regards to the lack of scrim in the specific membrane you mentioned, Tom, I can not comment. I am not familiar with that brand. However every piece of tpo and pvc I have laying around my office all have either a polyester or fiberglass reinforcing scrim. To be honest the only non reinforced tpo I have seen in the flashing membrane.

In regards to the thickness, the tpo typically starts at .040 and goes up all the way to .080. We generally prefer the .060 which is some pretty durable stuff!

I'm not trying to knock conklin, I didn't even know they made/sold a single ply until today. I just wanted to set a few things straight for the record. I'm not sure if you went to the recent conklin sales training and got any sort of false information.

In regards to "hot tar" roofs. A coal tar pitch roof when properly installed will easily last as long as a pvc roof maybe longer with proper maintenance. During WWII they used to build the roofs over the factories to retain water, so every roof had several inches to several feet of standing water. All those roofs/swimming pools were coal tar pitch. In regards to the energy savings, well see my first paragraph, but also they can be coated. But you're a Conklin guy, you already know that.

Unless of coarse you are calling modified bitumen "hot tar". In my general area a modified bitumen roofing system is the most typical for residential for sure. It's also still fairly common on commercial too. Most guys are selling the 10-12 year assemblies. However there are 15 and 20 year specifications for modified bitumen as well. When I install modified bitumen, I install no less than the 15 year spec, and usually give and option for the 20 year spec. Why doesn't modified bitumen roofs last any longer than the average 10-12 years? Because the roofs are being installed to a 10-12 year spec. Cheap home/building owners do it to themselves! Then agin I do totally agree PVC will outlast modified bitumen any day.

The green card comment made me chuckle, I think that most of them don't posess such cards.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

tomdaleh

I worked for a building contractor for 5 years installing Conklin roofs before striking out on my own in St Louis. The contractor has been installing them for the last 21 years and has since retired from the carpentry but still installs the Conklin fluid systems from mid-March (depending on the weather) through mid October.

He was never involved with all of Conklin's multi-level marketing stuff; he was looking for a good product for customers with flat roof issues when he came across Conklin at a building trade show back 21 years ago or so. He did his research for about a year before trying their products and hast been using them ever since. He tries other products as well but has yet to get the performance he does with the Conklin products. He's got Conklin fluid roofs going on 19 years without a recoat (a recoat is usually recommended between the 12th & 14th year). I now sub-contract for him at times down in the Southeastern Missouri area.

The island heat effect during the summer months in the St Louis area is a big draw for the white reflective roof. I often bid hot tar roofs where the crew went to the local roofing supply house, rented the "kettle" and started roofing with mop in hand. Those are the 3-5 year hot tar jobs. It's often hard to compete with the pricing on those jobs unless you educate the consumer on the energy, environmental, and return on investment benefits.

Yeah, I would imagine the bitumen would be ideal in the Chicago area; I did my basic training at Great Lakes during the winter of '86! Wow, talk about cold!!!

Grumpy

The hot tar jobs you are talking about is what I call a reglaze and yeah I'd agree that's a 3-5 year job and a complete waste of money. All it is is a smear of hot tar over the existing roof. It'll fill some cracks and voids in the roof surface but not much else.

Problem with the modified bitumen is not the procudt, but the fact that any tom dick and harry can pick it up at home depot or any big box store. Their lack of training has given it a bad name. Not to mention the numerous historic land marks recently burned down by roofers and their torches. The media loves it! Modified bitumen can perform well when properly installed, but it rarely is ever properly installed. I can talk for days of the disasters I have seen with mod bit.


That's why we typically opt for the white single ply now. It meets the current energy reflectivity requirements, goes down a little bit faster, and is not associated with cheap disasterous roofing. I am going to meet someone today who found me in this forum on this very thread last week and wants an estimate for TPO or PVC. That's at 1:30 pm.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

JWilliams

In my area I've never seen any mod bits for sale in the big box stores. ive only seen 90 mineral rolled roofing and endless buckets of bull.

Grumpy

Home Depot, Lowes and possibly Menards in my area all sell modified bitumen off the shelf to anyone and usually have a torch display right next to the rolls. Home depot for sure sells 90#, but not sure if I have seen it anywhere else. Lots of 90# roofs in Chicago, that's for sure.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

JWilliams

i went to upper alabama once for my boss to put a roof on an addition on his mother in laws house. he gave me his credit card to buy the supplies. no roofing supply house anywhere in the town. i went to home depot and they had rolls of mod bit.. but no base sheet?! i asked the guy working in the section and he said hes never heard of putting a base sheet down when installing mod bits. i told him and the people around there must be out of their minds!

Grumpy

They sell base at the home depot's here, but then again I have seen several roofs with the mod bit torched directly to the plywood.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

JWilliams

ive torched directly to plywood one time. i was nervous as hell. it was a screened in backporch with exposed ceilings and the homeowner didnt want nails poking thru the wood. so he said put it down without the base sheet