Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt - Commercial Roofing - Contractor Talk

Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt

 
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:44 PM   #1
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Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


OK all you hot roofers out there, I have a very important question that I need some help on. A little background, I looked at a job with a blister in the cap sheet and I was able to peel up much of the sheet when I cut the blister. The contractor proceeded to remove several more sheets from the same area, he said he remembered it being too cold that day.

My understanding has always been that the EVT required for built up roofing is so that the heat of the asphalt activates the asphalt in the membrane sheets, therefor Fusing the sheets together, rather than just adhering the sheets together. Am I wrong??? When A sheet was pulled up the following 3 means of failure were observed:

1. Cohesive Failure - Asphalt was evident on the underlying ply and the bottom surface of the membrane cap sheet due to a failure of the cohesive bond of the asphalt and not a failure of the bond between the membrane cap and the asphalt. In this area, it was evident that the asphalt was hot enough and properly installed to activate the asphalt within the membrane cap sheet and “fuse” the sheet to the underlying base ply.


2. Adhesive Failure – No residual asphalt was present on the bottom of the sheet. The adhesive bond was broken between the asphalt and the membrane sheet. The asphalt appeared “dull” in finish because it was not hot enough to activate the asphalt in the membrane cap sheet when it was installed. This was referred to as “beginning to adhere” and was deemed an acceptable application practice by the manufacturers representative.

3. Non-Adhesion – No residual asphalt was present on the bottom of the sheet. The underlying asphalt appeared “shiny” in finish and the cap sheet still had the talcum powder on the bottom of the sheet. This indicates the underside of the sheet never came in contact with the asphalt. This was deemed unacceptable by the manufacturers representative. The contractor was instructed to cut a slit in the blister and adhere or torch the inside of the blister until it is adhered and then install a membrane patch over the slit.

Would anyone find it acceptable to just adhere the sheet? I know the base plies were installed in hot enough asphalt because you could see the bleed through on the sheet.

Thoughts???

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Old 01-09-2012, 05:32 PM   #2
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


Without getting in to a debate over terminology, I've always used the term fused when referring to hot air welding a PVC lap etc. & adhered when mopping. That being said, the ply sheets in the BUR should bond together and not separate. As I understand, a holiday was found, cut open & you were able to separate the cap from the inter-plies (like peeling an onion). In other words, there was no bonding of the plies. Sounds to me like the presence of moisture when mopping or the asphalt was to cold in that area. Possibly the the guy mopping was getting ahead of himself & trying to mop too far- you know those guys who go 12 feet in one stroke. What was the ambient temperature that day? Was he phasing the roof and the plies in place too cold ? Or was his cap sheet left out in 20 degree weather? I'd get with the contractor and find out all those conditions.

But to answer your question, you should not be able to separate the plies from each other by hand if the roof was installed correctly and there is no material failure.

I'm curious,what was the system used?

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Last edited by Miami Roofer; 01-09-2012 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 01-10-2012, 08:19 AM   #3
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


All of the above. Its a Big job in a CO winter and your typical GC wanting the project done and contractor wanting to be semi profitable. I cant speak too much about the project or post photos but I wish you could see it. Thanks for the input...

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Old 01-10-2012, 09:57 AM   #4
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


EVT should be measured at the mop instead of the kettle. Chances are it was barely within range at the kettle, and by the time it was put down on the roof during winter it was too low.

If you are not worried about the remaining mopped asphalt delaminating (or if you can remove it) I would mop down a new cap sheet.

Edit: is this SBS or APP?

Last edited by shazapple; 01-10-2012 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:05 AM   #5
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


I use +or- 25 degrees from EVT for installation for this type 4 it is 425 to 475. When I was there the best i saw at application was 400. Unfortunately I cannot make them stop only tell them that it is not following manufactures requirements. I really just wanted clarification that the sheets should be "fused" and not just stuck together.

SBS I have never seen APP applied in hot asphalt. I think it needs the higher temps of a Torch...

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Old 01-10-2012, 12:51 PM   #6
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


Blisters are generally caused by moisture. If you can peel the cap sheet off it was too cold. You may even be able to see some hints of mop marks in the asphalt. If the kettle was 400 deg it was close to 350-375 on the roof depending on building height (how far was it pumped) , if it was pumped in to a lugger, How long the lugger or bucket of hot set on the roof and or how slow they were going. The moper also could have been too far a head. 12' isnt to far a head if the setter is doing his job. Also if the hot was being pumped up to the roof was the pipe insulated? If not this will cool down the hot very quickly. If you were up on the roof while it was being installed did the moper look like he was going to chit him self? If so it was too cold

If the manufacture says that is an acceptable way to repair it then so be it. They are the one's footing the warranty right?
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:09 PM   #7
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1985gt View Post
If the manufacture says that is an acceptable way to repair it then so be it. They are the one's footing the warranty right?
I never go by this way of thinking. Occasionally I am hired to make sure a roof is installed correctly. Roofing warranties are garbage. This one only last 10 years. We’re installing a 30 year plus roof. Good roofing practices and the NRCA manual (written by contractors) is the only way to inspect.

Roofing warranties are nothing more than another moneymaking marketing plan. They wouldn’t offer them unless they were making out in the end. Plus what do they cover. I’ve seen a warranty claim where an improperly installed seam opened up letting water into a server room. There was over a hundred grand in damage. The Manufacturer paid the roofer to install a 25$ patch. Meanwhile the owner is trying to figure out how to pay for new servers. I will take a properly installed BUR by a contractor I trust any day over a 30 year warranty. Just read one of the warranties. They are garbage, they are there to protect the manufacturer not the owner.

I will write a post on warranties one of these days so everyone can put in there two cents…
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #8
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


GT- Guys like you act like all contractors are good. Theres some real talent among people on this forum and you are one of them, but were talking about a small percentage of roofers. MOST DONT CARE.. you have to have fought that. The good roofers bids were always higher and that just means the owner would pay me more to fight the "Roof Hack"
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:19 PM   #9
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pie in the Sky View Post
I never go by this way of thinking. Occasionally I am hired to make sure a roof is installed correctly. Roofing warranties are garbage. This one only last 10 years. We’re installing a 30 year plus roof. Good roofing practices and the NRCA manual (written by contractors) is the only way to inspect.

Roofing warranties are nothing more than another moneymaking marketing plan. They wouldn’t offer them unless they were making out in the end. Plus what do they cover. I’ve seen a warranty claim where an improperly installed seam opened up letting water into a server room. There was over a hundred grand in damage. The Manufacturer paid the roofer to install a 25$ patch. Meanwhile the owner is trying to figure out how to pay for new servers. I will take a properly installed BUR by a contractor I trust any day over a 30 year warranty. Just read one of the warranties. They are garbage, they are there to protect the manufacturer not the owner.

I will write a post on warranties one of these days so everyone can put in there two cents…

Your other option is to tear off the whole roof and redo it. IF your fighting the roofing contractor you will lose this one since the manufacture has already said this is how to fix it and get a full warranty what ever it is.

I don't know of a good way to tear off just the cap sheet. At some point in the roof the felts will come with it. After that the insulation will too. SO then your down to the deck.

The roofing contractor will only do what the manufacture suggest. So then you would be looking at court. I don't see a way anyone but the contractor and manufacture will win.

If you wanted a 30 year roof they should have hired a 30 year contractor, If he can't hot a cap sheet down correctly there will be other problems in the future.

As far as the warranties go I would some what agree. In the case you provided that is where the contractors insurance covers the interior damage. Yes I've read warranties before I've been up against manufactures before, this is why we stick very few manufactures one's that hold up on their end of a deal.

If you have ever seen Tommy Boy the saying on guaranties applies here. "I could get a good luck at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bulls ass but I would rather take the butchers word for it" Warranties are generally not worth the paper they are written on unless they are backed up.
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Old 01-10-2012, 01:57 PM   #10
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Re: Mod-Bit roofing in hot asphalt


It seems like we had a good contractor, I’m covering my butt at this point, I recommended A few test cuts randomly selected, then we peel them with all parties present and see what kind of adhesion we get. Ultimately, the owner can choose not to accept the roof at my recommendation. The case would settle with the contractor and manufacturer splitting the bill. I don’t want this, This isn’t in anyone’s best interest. I’m not one of those guys who finds faults just so I can write something up. But this is improper installation. All I can do is give my recommendation cause my name is on it too. Beyond that, they can deal with it.

It all comes down to the membrane and asphalt being too cold at application.
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