why would u leave your roof open

Jasonthompson

yancey yes i have seen felt bleed water which tells me u think felt is water proof not water restitent. if it's water proof then why is it not used like shingles,tile,cedar shake cause it's not water proof!!!(2) I own a skytrac so i can load my roof when i want so everything is ground dropped then when i need it i lift it to the roof and have my guys load it. I don't do many tile job not in high demand here. I do alot of bigger comp jobs (HOA's) that is right. And just by ur response I wouldn't hire u anyways cause u sound like the jack of all trade but the master of none. And those are people who I stay way from. It comes down too risk vs reward, the risk that u put out there has no reward in the end

yanceyman1

Oh boy, Grumpy, did you ever open a can of worms on this one!! Your reply got a real laugh at my shop! Let me get this straight... you would tear off a section and then HAVE THE REST OF THE MATERIAL GROUND DROPPED! I'm not sure you read my first thread, but we are talking about a 85 sq.,8/12 tile job! Lets say your super crew, (that tears off, loads AND installs all at the same time), tears off 10 sqs. that morning because you have rain coming that afternoon. That means your crew is going to have to, "hoist or hump", 73 sqs. of concrete tile up a ladder!! That is 6650 pcs.of tile. or 63,175 lbs.! At a maximum of 4 pcs. per trip it would take your guys 1662.5 trips just up the ladder!! Not to mention that this same crew had to tear off that same day AND base and batt. And remember, this is a 8/12 roof! I did see this happen one time on t.v. But it broke Fred Flintstones back too. Come on Grumpy, this is 2010. Come out of the stone age!! Even if you could find someone dumb enough to do this, at 5mins. each way, it would take your guys 277.08 hours to complete this task alone. That's 6.9 WEEKS! That's not taking into consideration the fact that the time would double or triple the farther away from your ground drop you got. Now you want to talk about risk management! How many of your guys would fall off the roof from fatigue or rupture a disk during all this? In the episode I watched, Mr. Slate had to pay Fred workers comp for 2 years for a ruptured disk! So is your way really safer? Are YOU seeing a trend here? As far as your companies reutation... try telling the home owner that the contract he signed in Jan. of 2010 will be completed in Feb. of 2011 and see how long you even have a reputtion to worry about! The one thing we agree on in your reply is that, yes, I wouldn't work for you. You probably couldn't afford my $87,000 salary, but much more than that, I wouldn't work for someone who put his reputation ahead of the well being of my men. Any owner who would have his men tear off, load AND install is one of those guys who also piece work his guys to death. Let me guess, you pay your guys around $15 a sq. to shingle, right? ALL of my men are paid by the hour. Top journeymen/foremen start at $29.50, have health care, paid holidays and yearly production bonuses! How?, you might ask? IF you had read my first thread, you would know that I work for the best company in California. Family owned and operated since 1895! Last year we had 337 finished contracts, with contract total pricing of $7,066,000. My men work here because we take VERY good care of them. We hire the best, to stay the best. That is how we can afford to pay them the way we do. If you treat your men like gold, they will treat the company like gold. But if you treat your men like replacable ***** they will... well you get the point.
I've rambled on enough. But just one more thing before I go, Grumpy, do you think concrete tile is waterproof? If you said, "yes" You are 100% WRONG! Ask your local tile rep., install advisor or any 2nd year apprentice. If you answered ,"no", then how can you not dry in your tile jobs so they are waterproof? When you get a chance, read my reply on ,"why leave your roof open?" Bye for now...

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"The Best Way To Appreciate Your Job Is To Imagine Yourself Without One". OSCAR WILDE

Slyfox

LoL' you have that speech saved on in your computer Grumpy?

As a foremen in the 80's and early 90's I had 2 dry-ins leak.
One cost my boss $40.00 to replace some drop ceiling tiles in a half bath, he replaced all even tho only one had a half dollar size stain because the others had faded enough that the one new section would have been an eyesore.
(My right hand roofer forgot to caulk around the plumbing stack)
The second leak cost my boss $200.00 to dry out the in door/out door carpet on the enclosed porch and have it cleaned.
(Some one stepped on the ridge that was already slotted for ridge vent)

"Both problems were my fault because I failed to see/catch these errors"

Since going self employed in 1994 I have had -0- leaks on tie-ins.
That's including when I was running three crews of employees & a couple sub crews and I was not working on the roofs other than with inspections & supervision.
I am a one crew company now and working both the roofs and everything else, but, that's temporary.

I'm not sure what my percentage ratio would be, I do have records of how many re-roofs I have done since 1994, I do not have records for how many I did as a foremen.
I'm thinking it's safe to say my percentage would be less than 5% tho.

Just so you guys don't think I'm on some ego/denial trip here or have just had my feelings hurt and am making things up as I go, I'm not that type of person.
I am not the best roofer I know.
I am not the best roofing contractor I know.
I do believe I am as good as any and better than most.

I actually keep a list of other roofing companies name and numbers with me and when something comes up that I can't handle or simply am not interested in, I will and have recommended other roofers to home owners.
I'd rather lose a job in good standings than start something I can't handle and lose it to the competition anyhow.

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yanceyman1

Jason, Ive torn off jobs that have had 30 lb felt on them for 30 plus years, with water running down that same underlayment for the same amount of years. Never leaked until the felt finally burned out. Tell me that felt wasn't waterproof. Performed better than most 3 tab comp roofs. And you keep harping on ,"risk vs rewards", that's b.s.! Yes, I take risks. But the owner of this company knows that. He also knows that I brought in over 7 million dollars last year. Did we have some ceiling damage, yes. I think the total for the year was 8 thousand and change. Did our reputation take a hit? Not one bit. Why? Because real roofing companies have liability insurance. What better word of mouth advertising can you get then someone telling their family that your company had a crew there within hours to take care of the problem. I know, I know, you are going to say that it is better to not have the problem. But if you asked the owner of this company if he would rather bring in, say 1 million dollars and take no risk or 7 and take a few chances, what do you think he would say? R I G H T !! And about your skytrac... I suppose you make your guys load their own tile too, right? If so, read my last thread. After you do, let me know if you can afford my $87,000 salary, (don't forget company truck, gas card and cell phone), and I'll come on over to where your at and show you how to make some real money roofing. One more thing, as far as reputation, ask anyone in the industry from California, "who's the best roofing contractor in northern california?" Only one name will come up consistantly. Don't believe me?,ask around, tell me what you hear.

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"The Best Way To Appreciate Your Job Is To Imagine Yourself Without One". OSCAR WILDE

yanceyman1

Slyfox, you are the kind of roofer this great industry was built on! I'll bet that even when you are sore and tired, if a family member or freind called you in the middle of the night with a bad roof leak, your the kind of guy that would get up and help. You probably bleed mastic when your cut!! Wish there was more like you around. Give me some old Bad Company music, sunshine, a good nail gun and some plywood in front of me and I'm happy as can be.

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"The Best Way To Appreciate Your Job Is To Imagine Yourself Without One". OSCAR WILDE

Slyfox

I have no proof of this, I tried searching for such a test and can't find it, but, they did test water penetrating #15 pound felt, it set there "ponding water" a really longtime before it did so.

Underlayments are not designed with protection against the sun, so they only temporarily hold out the weather when left exposed.

Underlayments are not just felt paper nailed/stapled to the roof sheathing.
Underlayments are #15,#30, Synthetic, organic and other types felt paper style products that are fastened with nails, mopped on, torched on, self adhered, glued down, etc.
Plus you have the use of metals like eave flashing/drip edge etc.

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Jasonthompson

hey slyfox u just said it right there underlayments are only temporarily hold out weather when left exposed

Jasonthompson

yancey who do u work for cause i used to work for DRI in cali for awhile and they were the 2nd biggest roofing co in cali a 100 million co. but now this is starting to sound like a pissing match so lets stay on the subject. Cause it's not gonna get us anywhere.

Jasonthompson

plus there is noway in hell felt #15 or #30 will hold up better than 3-tab or otherwise we just install felt. how can oil and paper hold out water better than asphalt and fiberglass that just don't make sense

Grumpy

No Sly but I do now since I have been writing it so frequently over the last few weeks and have written it maybe a dozen times over the last 8 or so years since I've been coming to these forums. It applies to so many threads though doesn't it? I'll probably reread it one day and make it a little more comprehensive. There were alot of scattered random thoughts going on.

But I believe these random thoughts. We have to make our companies as idiot proof as possible. Remove the thought, remove the error potential. At McDonalds the fry cook doesn't need to know how long to cook the fries for, he just presses a single button when he drops the fries and then it beeps when the fries are ready. No thought, no error. No matter how much respect and regard we have for our employees, I want to prevent mistakes before they happen, they are human and will EVENTUALLY make a mistake. I do NOT want to make their jobs easier. They get paid well to do the job the way I want it done... cautious and safe.

Those two repairs from leaks cost your boss $240, but could have just as easily cost thousands. What if they had a mona lisa that got dripped on? That's the point I am trying to make. Nothing is guaranteed. See if your boss had the policy that I do, the roofs wouldn't have leaked. It couldn't leak, it'd be finished product. Good for him that they were only minor. We've got enough problems in this biz.

I don't think anyone can disagree that dryins will leak if not properly installed. That's the point, eventually someone will forget something. Forget one bead of caulk, forget one button cap, get caught in a freak storm, it's game over. Yes it's human error, but who is installing that felt? Humans.


Sly, of all people posting here in this thread, you may not agree, but I think by now you understand why I believe it. You've read enough of these similiar threads. Correct? I mean, I don't know how else to say it.


Yancy, I am not going to argue with you. You won't be laughing when your felt roof leaks, and eventually it will leak. If I lose the job for being too expensive so be it, I'll let someone else have the failure. Maybe it doesn't fail, good for you/them. But with my luck, if one thing in life I have learned, when I take chances; I lose. Penny wise, dollar foolish. Maybe you have better luck than I do. I just don't take chances anymore.

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-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing