why would u leave your roof open

Jasonthompson

Why would u leave ur roof open to the elements. I just don't get that. I never would do that. That's my opinion. Cause what if it rains with high winds, felt is only water resitent for so long till it starts to bleed water. Then what u have home owner calling u saying it's leaking and then who looks like the dumb ass, u do and that can hurt a company's rep around town. Plus then that's when u got to start making claims on your insurance, repairing drywall, and replacing insulation there goes ur profit. So in my opinion why would u leave ur roof open?

Grumpy

Good post. When I makes posts like this, I get flamed to hell. I agree. I do not beelive that dry-ins are dry.

Although I do understand why in FL it is done, because there are so many inspection requirements and inspectors are never on time.

I also understand why companies do it, it's cheaper to send out your lowest paid hacks to rip the roof and then send your skilled roofers the next day to roof it in. In addition come comoanies might be remodeling whores, the kind of company that does everything, and doesn't have enough forehtough to think about how much they'll be able to put back that day so they just tear tear tear until they get tired.

However I prefer to practice not to tear off more than you can put back the same day. Certainly stop tearing by noon, or sooner.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

Jasonthompson

I agree with u on this. so many companies do bite more off then they can chew!!! and ur right about Fl and inspector's are never on time. But thats when u have to plan ahead for that. Maybe on those days ur guy's work alittle later on those days or if u are leaving it open for a long time aleast trap the roof with new traps not old holely ones that are ur tear off traps. thanks on the comment I don't mine getting flamed to hell cause why would u put yourself in that spot anyways. u know!!! but people can't stand to be told the truth.

Grumpy

If you tarp the roof, the inspector can't see LOL. I'd hate to be working in FL. The inspectors around my area will be satisfied with pictures showing the ice shield installed.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

Slyfox

!Flames!

If you can't believe the dozens of experienced roofers in this and other forums that have explained how the underlayment can be installed to hold out the weather you should question your selves about rather or not your able to hear the truth and learn something new.

*End !Flaming!

__________________

red_cedar

This thread is so ridiculous and will not reply other than for the comment.

yanceyman1

Grumpy, I'm surprised at you! I have read many of your very intelligent replies here, but surely you are not going to tell me that you agree with the notion that a properly felted in roof cannot sit thru a rain storm without leaking? And as far as "traping" the roof, Jason when was the last time you tried to trap a 8in12 tile job with 460 ft. of valley, 320 ft. of hips, 2 chimneys, 4 dormers and a host of "hot" pipes on the deck? Impossible! So what would be your solution? Tear off portions of the roof, but only if you could cover it the same day? That would mean tearing to or from a hip or gable, in order to keep it watertight, right? Then you would have to felt and batt that section, call out the material supply company and have them load tile on just that section.( are you with me so far?) If this is the way you do your roofs, you must only contract 4in12 comp jobs under 20 sqs. Let me explain why... If you had to tear off, base & batt, load and then lay all in the same day, how many sqs. do you think you could complete? With a kick ass crew, maybe 4 or 5? From your replies so far, I'll say 4. So that would mean that on my 85 sq. tile job you would have the material supply company come out and load 21.25 times! Shoot, the way you would run this job, eventually you would have the tear off crew, loading crew AND installers bumping into each other, trying to tear off, load and install at the same time! Wait, I'm just joking! You wouldn't really do that. Do you know why? Because I would of fired you WAY before that!
On a more serious note, red_cedar, I am sorry to stoop this low. But it just fries my bacon to read these ridiculous replies from people who are not qualified to carry a real journeyman's tool bags. Ok, Ok I'll stop.
I must tell you that your reply to my thread was VERY helpfull. Thanks.
Also high-five to slyfox!! Now there is a roofer that knows what he is doing! So how about it fellow JOURNEYMAN roofers, can you felt in a roof in the winter, with a storm coming, and not lay awake at night worrying about leaks? Oh, and one last thing, Have any of you ever seen felt ,"bleed water"?

__________________
"The Best Way To Appreciate Your Job Is To Imagine Yourself Without One". OSCAR WILDE

Interloc

Slyfox and yancyman1...thumbs up dudes

BamBamm5144

I usually try to get the job torn off and felted in one day, with the shingles delievered as late as possible, and be able to roof the next day. Of course if there is the potential for a huge storm I usually wait until the storm has passed to start the job. I have felted in jobs where it unexpectedly rained that night and I never worry about it and have never had problems. With the shinglemate felt from GAF, nearly all bubbles dissapear when the sun for awhile although I am slowly becomming a big fan of Tamkos regular old 15lb.

There is no reason why you should not be able to dry in a roof one day, and have it remain dry until the next in a light or even moderate rain shower.

Grumpy

We as business owners need to manage risk. That is our primary function. Nobody is going to care about the reputation of your copany as much as you do. Nobody is goign to care about your financial stability that comes from managing risk and eliminating mistakes, as much as you will. No matter how good you are, you are tempting fate and taking on more liability by leaving the roof covered with felt. I am sure we can all agree that felt is no where near as good as a finished roof. There is definetly an increased risk.

Therefore as a risk manager I have concluded that it is not in the best interest of my company nor my customers property to take such risks.

Can a dry in be made water tight? Sure, but why? I mean it just maks sense to only tear off as much as you can roof that day and be SAFE. I have never had a single good answer to the question why. The only answer I have ever heard, which doesn't satisfy me, is "because it's easier for me the roofer to tear it all off at once." Faster and easier is NOT better.


I disagree that this thread is ridiculious. This thread holds tremendous merit. Put yourselves in the mind of your customer for a minute, we tend to too often think like roofers. Now as a customer would you want your contractor taking those kinds of risks on your home and perhaps biggest investment?

I make it a point to tell each and every single customer, "Your roof is about a 2 day job. But don't worry because we will not tear off more than we can roof that day. I wouldn't be able to sleep EZ at night knowing the only thing protecting me from a major insurance claim is a piece of felt paper and a tarp. I have pictures of other peoples jobs I have seen in my daily travels with tarps blowing in the wind and exposed wood beneath. What's below that wood? Your insulation, ceiling, hard wood floors, big screen tv etc..." when you tell people this, say it once or thrice and see their reaction and then tell me I am wrong.

The bottom line is I am selling piece of mind.


Now I know what you are going to say, it's what you guys always say, the arguments never change. "We can do it, some can't but we can." You're also going to say, "that's just marketing bs hype, we real roofers see through that kind of crap." blah blah blah... It's not hype it's true. If I have seen tarps blowing in the wind, that means it can happen. And if it can happen to anyone, it can also happen to us.


Further more, back to the risk management. I encourage everyone to read Emyth which is about systematizing and organizing your business. As a part of our roles as risk managers, we need to make our business systems fool proof. In other words you shouldn't have to be on the job site for each and ever nail, and if you are well that's a whole other argument I have had many times and would be happy to have again. But regardless, we need to make our business practices as idiot proof as possible. I use this as a valid stance on many contrversial arguments we have. I could literally copy and poste this entire reply into numerous contrversies. My position is the same: manage risk and reduce liability. It sounds bad, but open your mind and think about this statement for a second before you blow up and brag how great your workers are... We need to make our systems as idiot proof as possible so that the people with the least training and education can accomplish our end goal without mistake.

In other words you don't need a crew of foremen. You just need one foreman who can think and give direction, at the same time you need a couple technically skilled workers. But you also need unskilled labor. Paying 4 foremen will be double what you'd pay the above described. Now having said that, the unskilled labor is going to be working too. And the foreman can't watch over him always. He and everyone will make mistakes, even YOU will eventually make a mistake.

Going back to that, we will all eventually make mistakes. Take away the human factor from the equation. The wife was bitching at the worker and his mind is pre-occupied. He has a slight flu but rather than stay home, he needs money and comes to work, and isn't really focused. It's damned near the end of the day and he's been working 10 hours in 90+ degree heat and is just ready to go home.

It's human nature. Therefore it is my duty to my financial stability as well as my customers' piece of mind and trust in me, to make sure that these thigns don't happen. Taking them out of the equation is the only way to ensure they do not happen. Risking it and using my bravado and ego to assure the customers that I'm too good to make mistakes and am Jesus Christ himself, the only human being to ever not make a mistake, then well... you are risking it.


I do not agree that a dry in is dry because I have seen numerous fail.



Ok for the record, the other controversies that people like SLy, for example, have seen me debate numerous times... I might as well get them all out in the open now for those of you who are not familiar.
-When you use torch applied roofing every job you do you are a job closer to burning down a building.
-Most roofing systems should not be installed below freezing weather.
-This one obviously, a dry in is not dry.
-If you are an owner/operator setup you are better off getting a job and working for someone else.

Oh there's many more. I'm sure they'll come up in good time. These are just the most common arguments I have, off the top of my head.

__________________
-Grumpy
Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing