Scaffolding - Roofing Talk

English Roofer · 12-28-2008, 10:46 AM

Hi Guys, I have noticed by looking at roofs you have done in the States that there doesn't seem to be alot of saffolding around where you are working, here in the U.K. health and safety insists we have scaffolding to just under facia height.
I have seen boards that are fixed across ladders (used to be known as cripplers here)and also on accross shingle and slate roofs,sorry i dont know there name,is this the norm or have i missed something?
Cheers
Dave

Ed the Roofer · 12-28-2008, 12:47 PM

It takes too long to set up pipe scaffolding, especially if you were going to be running it around the entire perimeter of the house.

The toe boards hooked onto the roof hooks work well, if installed correctly. The correct OSHA name for the roof hooks is, "Roof Cleats", by the way, but I have Never heard anyone cal them that.

The ones that stretch between 2 ladders are commonly called walk planks and can be made of Aluminum or Wood planks, resting on top of the ladder-jacks for support and the proper height.

How about if you take some photos of the safety set-ups that you use in the UK and some of us can do the same, to share safety lessons?

Ed

English Roofer · 12-28-2008, 06:00 PM

Hi Ed, had a quick look though my photos and most nearly all of them are of the roof, but i found these as follows,we have to scaffold right around the building when we re-roof, the only time i dont is if the roof is a fairly flat pitch but this is rare.
You would not want to be caught working with out scaffold but the Health and safety dept, they would close you down!

Ed the Roofer · 12-29-2008, 11:29 AM

That is what we call Pipe Scaffolding around here.

I own 4-6 sections of them with some hoisting accessories and planks to span the widths, plus the levelers and wheels.

That is just One option allowed by OSHA here. I am surprised you are not allowed variations for fall arrest protection other than that.

Ed

Grumpy · 12-29-2008, 11:39 AM

Here is the thing. Scaffolding is sometimes necessarya but usually not. It'd take more time to setup the scaffolding than to actually roof that side of the house. However on a steep roof you have to start off a scaffold, and on those jobs we use ladder scaffold which sets up quick attached to the ladders.

Fall protection of some kind is necessary and usually slide guards are the best. Slide guards are essentially a 2x6 fastened to the roof using a bracket which is fastened under the roofing material. Technically youa re supposed to use something like this on each and every roof. I talked to one guy who says he does, even on garages and I laughed at him and asked if he's ever inspected one of his jobs in progress. It's a good thing but who's going to slide on a 3/12?

I had one customer mad at me on a siding job because we were delaying about the weather. When he suggested we setup and tarp off the scaffolding and use a heater, "like the masons do" I suggested he pay me for the equiment rental, setup and take down time as well as propane for heat." He decided to wait it out.

English Roofer · 12-29-2008, 12:34 PM

Im afraid it has been drummed in to us now, also we dont set up the scaffold, a scaffolder does, he has to have a up to date ticket(meaning he is certified to errect the scaffold) you can set up a tower scaffold(aluminium) but not a pipe one.
When we work on new builds the scaffold is but up in stages and all trades use this,but when we re-roof it is up to us and it is dam expensive, an average house would be in the region of £800-1000 ($1160-1450)
from the photos i have seen of the houses you guys build that would be alot more, the cost is passed on to the customer.
All i can say in defence of this system is what price do you but on safety?
If some one has some photos of the roof cleat method i would love to see it.
Cheers
Dave

Grumpy · 12-30-2008, 08:47 AM

We often use pedestrian scaffolds in the City when the building is right up at the side walk. You can't close a side walk, you just can't. So we have to protect those who choose to walk under the construction zone instead of crossing the street.

Saftey has no prive Dave, I mean it's priceless... But when we are competing against guys on a regular basis who pay their guys cash under the table and don't have workmans' compensation... How much extra non-mandatory saftey can we throw on the job?

Would scaffolding be better? Yes, maybe one some jobs. Is it absolutely necessary, well maybe on some jobs. However there are other methods that are just as or nearlya s good which take alot less time to setup. Would I like to do this on every job? Sure but already being $1,000 to $2,000 higher than many many of my competitors I am not sure I could throw another $1,000 ontop of that.

I'll go through my archive and see if I can find some "setup" pics for you.

English Roofer · 12-30-2008, 02:25 PM

Hi Grumpy, yes i see where your comming from with the price and against a guy who employs cash guys, i tend to use the same crew to do my re-tile or re-slates and i know there friends and family so it would be difficult for me if ,god forbid, something happened to them while working on one of my roofs.
Dont get me wrong, 60% of my work is done off a ladder and a cat ladder (hook lader)and even that can be scarey at times but you take your time and surcure everything thats possible to slip.
To be honest the re-roofs we quote a price for will need scaffolding, so the next roofer who also quotes will need scaffolding too,so its a fairly level palying field.
The ones who tend not to use scaffolding seem to be the pikeys(gypsies)
and you cant price against them because you will be bankrupt be for the years out!
Health and safety in this country has gone sooooo over the top its untrue, you cant fart with out someone comming to check you have a certificate
for doing it right! but i understand why working at height is there number 1 target, the top accident rate in this country is falling from height so were target No.1

Ed the Roofer · 12-30-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by English Roofer

Hi Grumpy, yes i see where your comming from with the price and against a guy who employs cash guys, i tend to use the same crew to do my re-tile or re-slates and i know there friends and family so it would be difficult for me if ,god forbid, something happened to them while working on one of my roofs.

Dont get me wrong, 60% of my work is done off a ladder and a cat ladder (hook lader)and even that can be scarey at times but you take your time and surcure everything thats possible to slip.

To be honest the re-roofs we quote a price for will need scaffolding, so the next roofer who also quotes will need scaffolding too,so its a fairly level palying field.

The ones who tend not to use scaffolding seem to be the pikeys(gypsies)
and you cant price against them because you will be bankrupt be for the years out!

Health and safety in this country has gone sooooo over the top its untrue, you cant fart with out someone comming to check you have a certificate
for doing it right! but i understand why working at height is there number 1 target, the top accident rate in this country is falling from height so were target No.1

If we are thinking about the same equipment, they are commonly called "Chicken Ladders" over here.

Ed

tinner666 · 01-02-2009, 07:02 PM

I get up about 60' or more, and I like scaffolding then too.

12-28-2008, 10:46 AM	#1
English Roofer Roofing Expert Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 232	Scaffolding Hi Guys, I have noticed by looking at roofs you have done in the States that there doesn't seem to be alot of saffolding around where you are working, here in the U.K. health and safety insists we have scaffolding to just under facia height. I have seen boards that are fixed across ladders (used to be known as cripplers here)and also on accross shingle and slate roofs,sorry i dont know there name,is this the norm or have i missed something? Cheers Dave

12-28-2008, 12:47 PM	#2
Ed the Roofer Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 622	It takes too long to set up pipe scaffolding, especially if you were going to be running it around the entire perimeter of the house. The toe boards hooked onto the roof hooks work well, if installed correctly. The correct OSHA name for the roof hooks is, "Roof Cleats", by the way, but I have Never heard anyone cal them that. The ones that stretch between 2 ladders are commonly called walk planks and can be made of Aluminum or Wood planks, resting on top of the ladder-jacks for support and the proper height. How about if you take some photos of the safety set-ups that you use in the UK and some of us can do the same, to share safety lessons? Ed __________________ Just Wait A Minute, I Will Be Right Back With A Link For That. http://www.rightwayroofingcompany.com/ www.rightwayroofingcompany.com Roof Estimates, Roof Repairs, Roofers, Roof Leak Help, Elgin, Carpentersville, East Dundee, West Dundee, Sleepy Hollow, Algonquin, South Elgin, Huntley, Lake In The Hills, Illinois

12-29-2008, 11:29 AM	#4
Ed the Roofer Super Moderator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 622	That is what we call Pipe Scaffolding around here. I own 4-6 sections of them with some hoisting accessories and planks to span the widths, plus the levelers and wheels. That is just One option allowed by OSHA here. I am surprised you are not allowed variations for fall arrest protection other than that. Ed __________________ Just Wait A Minute, I Will Be Right Back With A Link For That. http://www.rightwayroofingcompany.com/ www.rightwayroofingcompany.com Roof Estimates, Roof Repairs, Roofers, Roof Leak Help, Elgin, Carpentersville, East Dundee, West Dundee, Sleepy Hollow, Algonquin, South Elgin, Huntley, Lake In The Hills, Illinois

12-29-2008, 11:39 AM	#5
Grumpy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 925	Here is the thing. Scaffolding is sometimes necessarya but usually not. It'd take more time to setup the scaffolding than to actually roof that side of the house. However on a steep roof you have to start off a scaffold, and on those jobs we use ladder scaffold which sets up quick attached to the ladders. Fall protection of some kind is necessary and usually slide guards are the best. Slide guards are essentially a 2x6 fastened to the roof using a bracket which is fastened under the roofing material. Technically youa re supposed to use something like this on each and every roof. I talked to one guy who says he does, even on garages and I laughed at him and asked if he's ever inspected one of his jobs in progress. It's a good thing but who's going to slide on a 3/12? I had one customer mad at me on a siding job because we were delaying about the weather. When he suggested we setup and tarp off the scaffolding and use a heater, "like the masons do" I suggested he pay me for the equiment rental, setup and take down time as well as propane for heat." He decided to wait it out. __________________ -Grumpy Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

12-29-2008, 12:34 PM	#6
English Roofer Roofing Expert Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 232	Im afraid it has been drummed in to us now, also we dont set up the scaffold, a scaffolder does, he has to have a up to date ticket(meaning he is certified to errect the scaffold) you can set up a tower scaffold(aluminium) but not a pipe one. When we work on new builds the scaffold is but up in stages and all trades use this,but when we re-roof it is up to us and it is dam expensive, an average house would be in the region of £800-1000 ($1160-1450) from the photos i have seen of the houses you guys build that would be alot more, the cost is passed on to the customer. All i can say in defence of this system is what price do you but on safety? If some one has some photos of the roof cleat method i would love to see it. Cheers Dave Last edited by English Roofer; 12-29-2008 at 12:37 PM.

12-30-2008, 08:47 AM	#7
Grumpy Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 925	We often use pedestrian scaffolds in the City when the building is right up at the side walk. You can't close a side walk, you just can't. So we have to protect those who choose to walk under the construction zone instead of crossing the street. Saftey has no prive Dave, I mean it's priceless... But when we are competing against guys on a regular basis who pay their guys cash under the table and don't have workmans' compensation... How much extra non-mandatory saftey can we throw on the job? Would scaffolding be better? Yes, maybe one some jobs. Is it absolutely necessary, well maybe on some jobs. However there are other methods that are just as or nearlya s good which take alot less time to setup. Would I like to do this on every job? Sure but already being $1,000 to $2,000 higher than many many of my competitors I am not sure I could throw another $1,000 ontop of that. I'll go through my archive and see if I can find some "setup" pics for you. __________________ -Grumpy Chicago Gutters Chicago Roofing

12-30-2008, 02:25 PM	#8
English Roofer Roofing Expert Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 232	Hi Grumpy, yes i see where your comming from with the price and against a guy who employs cash guys, i tend to use the same crew to do my re-tile or re-slates and i know there friends and family so it would be difficult for me if ,god forbid, something happened to them while working on one of my roofs. Dont get me wrong, 60% of my work is done off a ladder and a cat ladder (hook lader)and even that can be scarey at times but you take your time and surcure everything thats possible to slip. To be honest the re-roofs we quote a price for will need scaffolding, so the next roofer who also quotes will need scaffolding too,so its a fairly level palying field. The ones who tend not to use scaffolding seem to be the pikeys(gypsies) and you cant price against them because you will be bankrupt be for the years out! Health and safety in this country has gone sooooo over the top its untrue, you cant fart with out someone comming to check you have a certificate for doing it right! but i understand why working at height is there number 1 target, the top accident rate in this country is falling from height so were target No.1

01-02-2009, 07:02 PM	#10
tinner666 Slate and Metal Roofer Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 199	I get up about 60' or more, and I like scaffolding then too. __________________ SLate Repairs, Richmond, Va. Contractor Domain Name Sales Yes, I Sell them. DIY Roof Help Richmond, Va. Tinner666 Window Flashing Tutorial

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